1998 550 Maranello "sorting" thread--DIY | Page 5 | FerrariChat
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1998 550 Maranello "sorting" thread--DIY

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by moorfan, Aug 15, 2011.

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  1. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #101 fatbillybob, Sep 9, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2011
    If you don't like figetting with the dial guage you can minimize some of that pain by finding TDC with the piston stop method. PS method can remove some user error. TDC is very important so check it twice. Engine cranks totally easy with all the spark plugs out. Oh it is real important to get the dial gage mounted well. Use a big piece of iron for it to sit on as a base or what I do is make another TDC plate thing and attach it to the heads like the TDC plate and the magnetic base of the dial gage goes there.

    As you watch TDC come to zero after rotating the engine a few times to see how the valvetrain works note how the cam marks almost or line up perfectly with the cam caps.

    Verify what timing you have now

    Lets say your timing is perfect with the old belts but your 4 cams are not lined up perfectly with the cam caps or maybe they all line up or maybe 1 does not line up. You get the idea. An easy trick you can use to regain that exact position during the belt swap is to:
    -lock the camshafts
    -loosen the cam cog bolts with the impact gun
    -make sure nothing moved
    -if the marks move then cycle the engine in the driven direction back to TDC and lock the camshafts again
    -lock the camshafts
    -verify all marks are where you want them TDC at zero and marks spot on or off as indicated by perfect timing
    -remove belts, replace tensioners, take cam cog bolts out remove cog pins, replace cam bolts finger tight
    -place new belt, in tension and allow cogs to freely rotate where they want, insert cog pins to the only one hole that allows entry, hand tight the cambolts
    -unlock camshafts, verify timing
    -sometimes you have to dittle the nearest cog hole and that can throw the timing off. if verification fails then you will have to pick the adjacent hole if you were advanced or retarded and verify timing again.

    If this makes no sense think about it and it will or give me a call.
     
  2. moorfan

    moorfan Formula Junior

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    #102 moorfan, Sep 10, 2011
    FBB thanks for all the suggestions!
    I used the piston stop method about 3 separate times also, but on the third try rotating the engine counterclockwise the crank bolt loosened and the degree wheel spun! That sent me back to the drawing board, making the process take twice as long.

    Between all my TDC measurements I believe that they all agree with less than a degree (on the wheel) error between all of them. With the engine currently sitting at TDC, only one of the four cam's timing marks lines up exactly. The other 3 are off by about a millimeter from the cap marks.

    Next step will be to check the opening and closing times prior to removing all the old stuff and removing the cams for seal replacement.
     
  3. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    #103 davehelms, Sep 11, 2011
    Is the 1-6 intake cam the one showing lined up marks? Cant say I remember ever seeing either of the 5-8 marks line up when everything is correctly set but I have seen the 1-6 intake marks work out. I have seen the 5-8 marks off by as much as 2 line widths.

    Makes sure that once the timing has all been set you recheck TDC to verify nothing has changed throughout the setting process. That happens all too often and the entire process must be repeated.
     
  4. moorfan

    moorfan Formula Junior

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    #104 moorfan, Sep 11, 2011
    Dave, you got it! Intake cam 1-6 has its marks spot on at TDC, while exhaust cam 1-6 and both cams 7-12 are advanced by about a mark width.

    Gonna work on it some more today.
     
  5. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    #105 davehelms, Sep 12, 2011
    Hmmm......... Creatures of habit they are, sometimes. Wonder how the "line up the marks" cars really run like? How many degree's is a stamp mark width on a 1" circle, 5-7 degrees?

    Things have changed a good deal in the last decade (line up the marks) and now some are realizing what a well tuned 550 really feels like. There was a time where rear tire life was measured in an oil change interval.... no longer. The bar has been raised and now we ask how many sets of rear tires between oil changes.
     
  6. moorfan

    moorfan Formula Junior

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    #106 moorfan, Sep 13, 2011
    I have been off the radar for a couple of days, attempting to get straight answers on cam timing for the 550. I have read all the methods, the opening/closing event method, the lobe centerline method, etc and have had results that seemingly did not agree with each other.

    One thing I was damn certain of was that I was not going to rip the old timing belts OFF before I had a good grasp of how to set timing and what was going on inside of MY engine.

    When you look at the 550 WSM, it details the following information:
    Intake opening 2* before TDC, closing 44* after BDC, intake duration 226*
    Exhaust opening 42* before BDC, closing 4* after TDC, intake duration 226*

    To use the opening/closing method you need to know where in the tappet's travel you are to note at what degree you are on the wheel to mark the event of opening or closing. Ferrari doesn't seem to specify in their WSM. Traditionally this has been at 0.050" in other cars.
    So I started by setting the dial gauge on the intake tappet of cylinder number 1 while the intake cam is moving along its base circle (no pressure exerted on the tappet by the cam). I set the gauge to zero, and tried to note at what degree on the wheel prior to TDC the gauge actually began to move. I got numbers in the 22 degree range. This couldn't be right. Closing number was off as well.

    Discouraged, I returned to the WSM and read the timing section thoroughly. Lo and behold Ferrari did include a "timing procedure" starting on page 64 of the WSM once the cams have been installed aligned to the assembly marks.

    The procedure is basically to set the number 1 cylinder to before TDC, lets say 50 degrees prior to the intake cam starting to open the intake valve. At this point the cam is on it's base circle and there is no contact between the tappet and the cam. You put the dial gauge down on the number 1 intake tappet as close to in the direction of travel of the tappet as you can. If your feeler tip is way off at an angle from the fundamental axis of tappet travel, you can end up with a false reading. Ferrari then says that you are to rotate the engine clockwise, towards TDC, making sure that the gauge stays truly zeroed while the cam is still on its base circle. Some number of degrees prior to TDC the intake cam will begin to exert pressure on the tappet as the lobe comes around and the gauge will begin to deflect. They state to stop your rotation on exact TDC and at that point the dial gauge should read exactly 0.7mm +/- 0.05 of deflection. This translates to .0275" of deflection on the gauge.

    At this point, without rotating the engine further, move your dial gauge's feeler probe to one of the two tappets on the exhaust side of cylinder number one and set it to zero again. Take the same pains to align the axis of travel of the gauge with the axis of travel of the tappet. At this point the exhaust lobe is still exerting a small amount of pressure on the tappet as the valve doesn't close for another 4 degrees. Ferrari then says rotate the engine OFF TDC further clockwise and watch the dial gauge. The gauge will travel off zero and will level out at a value when the exhaust cam goes onto it's base circle and is no longer touching the exhaust tappet. At this point, the gauge should read exactly 0.69mm +/- 0.05 (.0272").

    You then move the plate to bank 7-12 and determine TDC for cylinder 7 (which for me was 66* away from TDC for bank 1-6). Repeat the same procedure for the bank 7-12 cams.

    Looking back at one of my prior posts you will see that when I had set TDC on my motor, intake cam 1-6's assembly marks lined up perfectly, while the assembly marks of the other three cams were rotated a mark width counterclockwise (looking at the fronts of the timing sprockets) from their cam cap assembly marks.

    My measurements using the Ferrari method in the WSM show that my 1-6 intake cam (the one whose marks line up perfectly at present) is in spec, whereas the other three cams are out of spec just a bit and need to be rotated about a mark width clockwise to be in spec.

    Therefore this would seem to suggest that all of my cam assembly marks MAY be spot on matches to their cam cap marks when the engine is timed correctly. I will now remove the old timing belts and bearings, and when I reassemble the belts and bearings will attempt to pin the cogs in a position where the cam marks are all exactly on with their cap marks. Then I can repeat the timing procedure to verify that they are all in spec.

    Any input is appreciated.
     
  7. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #107 fatbillybob, Sep 13, 2011
    I have only timed my 550 a zillion times like you in one episode of doing my major over a year ago so I can't remember all the issues. However, I do remember being able to confirm the opening/closing specs and like you confirmed timing by lobe centerline. I also tried to figure out the cryptic ferrari thing with the 0.70mm blah blah blah but don't remember exactly how i did it. In my case I did more of a science lab experiment where you know the answer and you work the experiment backwards to make your work fit the data. So I was able to confirm timing. Basically if the 4 marks are very close to dead on assembly positions your timing is very close. Once I measured the diameter of the cam shaft at the marks. IIRC it was about 1.5". C=2piR So that is about 120mm circ at 360* makes for 3 degrees per mm! I forget if the scribe line on the camshaft is 0.5 or 0.25mm but it is small. So maybe every scribe line width is worth 1.5 degrees. At 1" diameter shaft that same scribe line is about 2 degrees. I say if your marks are nearly dead on and you prove timing with the lobe centerline (because I assume a symetrical cam) then go with it. Dwelling more on the subject will just cause you to loose patches of hair. Look at it this way, if Ferrari is so lame they can't make a motor go together on the assembly marks be perfectly timed then why would anyone assume the cam lobes are all perfect relative to each other? That error would also throw cam timing off as would the flexing of the shafts under dynamic load. Sure it is important to get as close to perfect as we can in this simple excercise but it is a waste of energy beating a fly with a sledgehammer.
     
  8. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    #108 davehelms, Sep 14, 2011
    All valid points.

    I view the topic as having 6 cylinders doing all the work and the other 6 just going along for a free ride unless they are perfectly matched to the first.... which is first? Paid for 12, I want all 12 working dammit.

    """beating a fly with a sledgehammer""" Priceless, that will be used often!
     
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  9. moorfan

    moorfan Formula Junior

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    #109 moorfan, Sep 14, 2011
    FBB...the WSM did include an error range and I had to tell myself that I'm just going to get within the error range and not obsess. This "while I'm in there" mentality can get ridiculous...I'm fighting with it all the time :)
     
  10. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    #110 davehelms, Sep 14, 2011
    Your Cats and tire salesman will thank you. Betcha cant stop in the error range.... betcha you shoot for perfect after paying all the dues to get where you are.
     
  11. moorfan

    moorfan Formula Junior

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    #111 moorfan, Sep 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  12. moorfan

    moorfan Formula Junior

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    #112 moorfan, Sep 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    So today timing belts are coming off and cams coming out.

    To remove the timing belts, remove the 19mm bolt holding the tensioner pulley in place. Use a screwdriver to wedge the tensioner AWAY from it's body (the spring tends to pull it towards it's body) until you can slip the belt off.

    Remove the tensioner body and clean off the old grease. I will be replacing tensioner bearing/pulley, the base for the pulley (although it appears I have the new 575 ones already) and the pin/springs.

    Photo 1 shows the disassembled tensioner with the old bearing and base in the upper right and the new on the bottom right.

    I removed the cam gears/cogs by holding the cog in my gloved hand and using the impact wrench. Came right out. The cams moved a little bit, but that is fine because I'm removing and replacing them anyway and will dial them in once they are reinstalled.
    To remove the camshaft, remove the caps. I chose to do this by loosening the cam caps little by little, because the shaft is under some tension and will snap up and out of its journals. Be EXCEEDINGLY careful not to drop the nuts or washers down into the head or crankcase. Ask me how I know this. :) The caps have an order and are not interchangeable between cams or themselves. Respect the order.

    Photo 2 shows the removed camshaft.

    Photo 3 shows the seat for the cam o-ring. There were two types of silicone sitting in that groove, some black, some white. Note the fully formed silicone plug obstructing the oil drain hole. Remove EVERY BIT of silicone, that is unless you wish to have cam seal leaks later. This took quite a bit of time as you want to do it gently to not scratch the soft metal. I replaced the front cover cam seal ring by reinserting it into its space and gently driving it in with a rubber mallet. The seal seems robust enough to do that.

    Photo 4 shows clean and smooth cam journals and tappets. Everything looks good there.

    I wiped down the camshaft well and inspected all the drain holes. All were clear. Lubricate the shaft well with engine oil prior to replacing it in the journals. Be very gentle and careful.
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  13. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3
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    #113 Cribbj, Sep 14, 2011
    Pete if you get a minute, could you possibly measure the OD of those buckets?

    Also, are you going back with OEM tensioner bearings, or do you know if Hill Engineering offers an improved bearing for our engines? Nothing shown on Hill's section of Ricambi's website for the 550.
     
  14. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
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    #114 Ricambi America, Sep 14, 2011
    Hill Engineering does not do a 550/575 bearing at this time. But let's keep our fingers crossed!
     
  15. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    #115 davehelms, Sep 14, 2011
    Bet the neighbors heard the cheer... well done.
     
  16. moorfan

    moorfan Formula Junior

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    #116 moorfan, Sep 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Okay. Complaining time.
    I have had severe difficulty with the water pump rebuild. Fatbillybob wrote a nice tutorial a while back on how to rebuild the water pump. However, he was using the "old" waterpump seal.

    Ferrari decided to redesign the waterpump seal so that it was more "robust" and a better seal, but I have now broken two of the frikking things. The new seal in my opinion is a piece of crap.
    The sleeve of the seal is surrounded by "carbon" rings that have the strength of pencil lead. The first time I tried to put the seal on I used a 17mm socket as a drift and tapped it once with the hammer. The carbon rings fractured instantly. Maybe I was too rough. Okay, fine.

    Second time around I heated the seal, iced the waterpump shaft, and applied a little Redline assembly lube on the shaft. Just a slight film. I then used the same 17mm socket, this time with a RUBBER mallet and tapped gently (photos 1 and 2). For 15 minutes. I got the seal 95% seated and then the carbon rings broke again. Can't get it on, can't get it off either...it took another 30 minutes with a chisel to get it back off.

    Am I really a total idiot? Don't answer that. I'm definitely done for tonight. Can't take it anymore.
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  17. ferraridriver

    ferraridriver F1 Rookie

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    #117 ferraridriver, Sep 14, 2011
    I'm guessing you don't have a press, can you use the car lift as a press? very carefully though.
     
  18. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #118 fatbillybob, Sep 14, 2011
    I feel your pain. Sometimes you are the bug and sometimes you are the windshield. If you give up send it to me and I'll put it together for you. I'll have to read my own tutorial since I forgot how I did it. CRS disease! I would try pressing it in. If you don't have a press you can make a 10 minute fast one by welding a square frame of steel and using your floor jack or put the WP with a socket on the jack pad and jack it up under the running board of your truck. It takes real skill to think like a hillbilly.
     
  19. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    #119 davehelms, Sep 15, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2011
    The new seal is a wonderful design and has terrific longevity under severe conditions.

    How one would install it properly (key word here), getting the set height of the spring loaded seal correct without the proper stepped press arbor is beyond me. I have read on here that folks have had success doing it with a socket but I can assure you it is not set correctly that way. Hell, even the factory tool doesnt set it to the proper set height, I had to make my own for a correct installed height.


     
  20. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #120 fatbillybob, Sep 15, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I yearn for the right tools and the right knowledge to use them.

    Alas...this poor hillbilly only got a hammer and a punch. If you saw the homemade tools I used to put those Ferrari gearboxes together well I'm sure you would just shake your head in silence.
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  21. ferraridriver

    ferraridriver F1 Rookie

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    #121 ferraridriver, Sep 15, 2011
    And that's not even a mechanic's hammer..........for shame!
     
  22. moorfan

    moorfan Formula Junior

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    #122 moorfan, Sep 15, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    FBB...
    That is NOT the seal. I've been begging Daniel to get me one of YOUR seals because even hillbillies can put them on :)

    Photo 1 shows the CURRENT seal. I was tapping the inner metal ring which is the part that actually seats on the shaft. Even tapping on the metal ring with the 4 prongs on it and staying TOTALLY OFF of the damn pencil lead ring around the outside still fractures the carbon ring through "transmitted" force. It's almost like the inner bore of the seal is a hair too small. Never in my life have I had so much trouble seating something like this.

    I guess I need to get an arbor press. Oh well.
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  23. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #123 fatbillybob, Sep 15, 2011
    Shoot! That was "the seal" around the date of my post on the subject and it does not leak either. I got my stuff from Daniel IIRC. Maybe sent it to dave and have him put it in. It takes the likes of Ferrari to make a retail value $5 part anywhere in the USA and sell it for 30 bucks only to be a POS. I hope that fragile thing holds up. Sounds like Dave has experience with that design and he posted it is hearty in function. But doesn't your current experience make you question its ability to function longterm? If the sealing surface is like pencil lead that scares me.
     
  24. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #124 fatbillybob, Sep 15, 2011
    You know the seal is not that sofistocated. You might try a water pump rebuilder in your area and just source the parts. I used to us Superior pump in Gardena, Calif.. I have not used them in so long maybe they are outta buz. Once the robber from Washington wanted $1000 for a rebuilt maserati waterpump. I took my pump apart and bought the rebuild parts by matching from boxes of parts at Superior. The cost was $8 bucks for seal and bearing!
     
  25. moorfan

    moorfan Formula Junior

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    #125 moorfan, Sep 15, 2011
    FBB I confess to being a *little* dramatic about the pencil lead comparison. However, there is no way I can gently tap that thing into place without breaking it. It is EXTREMELY tight on the shaft.
     
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