1998 550 Maranello "sorting" thread--DIY

Pete, can't you put the seal in the freezer for half and hour then try, or that will destroy the rubber seal.
Sark

 

Sark, the seal needs to fit onto the impeller shaft, so I put the impeller shaft in the freezer and baked the seal at 250* for 30 minutes to allow its inner bore to expand a bit. No dice.

 

Pete, I don't have the water pump in front of me, if the seal has to slide over the shaft then freeze the shaft. If the seal has to slide into housing then freeze the seal.
Sark

 

In that situation you should press it.
Sark

 

Comments, the new seal dose not require a new design shaft.
Sark

 

Carbon and ceramic, neither were designed to endure shock loading.

A 550 used at Baja vs Road America, it could be stated it is fragile at one, exceptional at the other.

 

I am currently evaluating whether I need to replace my hydraulic lifters. There is plenty of documentation out there about hydraulic lifter failure/noise with 355/360 lifters, and these are virtually identical. With each cam out you can look at them pretty closely. All of mine are at the same height with respect to the cylinder head, and all of them spin freely in their seats, however if you pull each one out and gently compress the inner piston some are springy and some are totally solid. I am not certain which is correct. It seems if the lifter's check ball is moving properly I should be able to compress the spring a bit and have oil come out of the drain hole. If the check ball is frozen it would be pretty incompressible. Any of you guys who have experience with this please chime in.

I have a few feelers out to some experts on this matter and will update as the information comes in.

Alternator has arrived. Yep, the John Deere 140A one.
Photos 1 and 2 show both alternators side by side. Case sizes and features are identical. The only difference is one of the two mounting holes on the new unit needs a little enlarging to fit the factory tensioner. No problem.

Photo 3 shows the alternator internals side by side.

Photo 4 shows the new alternator with the IN220E regulator installed. I am hoping that this hillbilly alternator will interact well with Ferrari's "sophisticated" electrical system
If it does it would be a major way to save bucks on a new unit.
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man i wish i lived next door so i could learn something....

 

Pete, this thread distressed me in two ways:

1) you live around the corner, and you have yet to invite me to your place.

2) our deal to compare my 575 to your 550 is being delayed, as you keep taking the damn thing apart.

Crap dude, I live 5 minutes from your house; let me bring my 575 to your joint and, let me watch you take yours apart! I will let you drive my car while you mess around.

I will give you free legal advice for life! PM me ...we are very close as you know. Wayne

 

Cool Pete,

Where did you source the new alternator and what is the part number?

 

There are conditions that could explain what you are feeling for both a Serviceable lifter and a Failed lifter. There is no short answer to your question so prepare for drivel..... "these are virtually identical".... Close, but not identical...........

In the simplest failure mode, think of the check ball holding back oil pressure, not allowing the plunger to compress.... ie, check ball working properly. If the check ball is failing to seat properly and does not hold back pressure, it will compress. This is but one of 5 different failure modes I have identified, with a number of those 5 being 'caused failures', not part malfunctions.

Unfortunately the answer is far more complex that the simple explanation given above as there are conditions that would lead to a 'compressible lifter' being just fine. The finger press test alone can not be used as the deciding factor between good and bad, it can only point a vague direction.

With a good many months and many hundreds of lifters inspected under a microscope, I am still trying to identify a consistently reliable method to determine what constitutes a good lifter, a failing lifter, and one that is close to failing.... simply by looking at it sitting in the head. Aside from it looking beat to hell, having a history of lifter rattle on start up or at idle.... the quest continues but we are getting closer. To complicate the answer further I have identified two failure modes where there will be no noise heard at all but performance will be affected. The upside is we have designed a method to rebuild/upgrade/blueprint them.... IF they are needed, define "IF".... The other positive thing for the 12 cyl. crowd is they are still available new at a reasonable price, not the case with the 8 cyl. pieces. I now know enough that if the 8 cyl parts were available I would still follow my path with upgrading them.

I do not see this as a big red flag waving problem at this point. If you hear a problem, plan to fix it at the next major. The key here is to pay attention and be aware of a possible pending issue you can listen for or one that cant be explained by any other means. Quit messing around with all these different weight oils that are not what the manufacturer recommended, think that choice was by chance alone? And for goodness sakes, change the oil frequently. If you happen to be one that buys the argument these oils will last 4 times longer than those of the past, so be it.... change the filters once or more times a year, they dont. I know what the first reactions will be but, do not be so quick to blame Ferrari alone for all these problems. Rest assured they have plenty to be bashful of, but remember... the EPA protecting us all from 'stuff' that makes us Glow in the Dark... the agency that forced the oil formulas to change a few years back.... the one that gave us Rabbit Pizz fuel with no concerns for the cars not designed for it...... There are many factors in play here and one must tip over a lot of rocks and stare through high power microscopes to fully understand which is the Chicken and which is the Egg, the answers are not simple. There is semi sound reasoning (debatable) why I am wasting time chasing obscure, seemingly non-issue issues like this, they all affect the performance and driveability and when one wants these Really Right... the small details must be addressed before we can move forward, it's almost as boring as fuel hose!

My apologies for the long winded drivel..... one without a good answer to your question.

 

Dave,
Your "drivel" is better than most people's "dissertation". Thanks for the information!

Carl the alternator is Nippondenso number 101211-7780, which is for a John Deere marine motor. I'm gambling that it will work out correctly in that it has the same size case, rotor, stator, rectifier bridge, and amperage rating. The regulator is a Transpo IN220E, which is listed as an acceptable interchange for the original regulator from my OEM alternator. As long as the alternator plug terminals (S-IG-L) are in the correct positions and the regulator is correct, it should work. Don't go buying this until I test it out

Wayne you are welcome any time buddy...i will PM you my cell number. And i don't quite need the legal advice yet but may when the car is finally on the road!

Regards,
pete

 

Pete,

I don't need an alternator just always on the look out for parts interchange which we should start as a sticky for the 550's.

 

wow, with all this, perhaps having mechanical lifters is not too bad afterall...

why are the hydraulic lifters on the 550 so shortlived, usually they outlast the life of an engine...

 

Worry not, the sky is not falling, just an issue to be discussed early on in the hopes it can be prevented.

Mechanical lifters are not bad at all but when a maintenance friendly design is used, they are heavy and greatly limit the RPM's possible. Hydraulic's do a better job transferring the full profile of the cam to the valve by eliminating clearances thus raising the bar with performance. Up until the last year or so we considered these free of the need for any maintenance. I have only heard a couple of 550's that showed a trace of rattle on start up. I had read and heard of 355/360 lifter issues for a few years but had not personally experienced any until this last year. Taz brought it to my attention that he knew of a number of 612's having problems but I have not experienced it personally.

In a well maintained car they will last the life of the engine. In a car where oil viscosity is played with, sloppy engine sealing techniques are done, infrequent oil changes..... a host of "Caused Issues" will be the result and the lifters are but one. As I was forced into dealing with the 355/360 lifter repairs due to them being NLA.... I am now getting my arms around the problems with those and the following models are of the same design.

An issue that is discussed and understood early enough can be considered a Prevented problem. What is "early enough"? My hope here is to prevent problems and in a great many cases of earlier model failed lifters, they were preventable. Then again, we could employ the 3 Monkeys strategy and ignore the topic all together.

 

As always, reading your comments and solutions to the problems brings joy to the otherwise depressing prospects of failures in our cars...

What have you come up with for mechanical lifers such as on the 456?

 

Only a failure if it cant be prevented. I am starting to realize I should have followed my gut feeling on a number of problems I am now dealing with, back when I first saw them. Had I done so.......

Nothing is needed on the 456 lifters. Cant fix what isnt broke and those are a time tested and proven design. Unless you plan for a 9800 RPM 456 engine, they are just fine.

 

Although shimming 48 valves is an excercise in patience and organisation - sure sharpens up skills with a mike! ... and I thought 8 valves in an Alfa engine was hard work. Good piece of design, well made and durable in the 456 engine. Like you said, not a problem..

 

Third Monkey here....I have never heard of lifter problems in 550's. It is a very interesting topic however.

 

Well since I am fatally afflicted with the "while you are in there disease" I have pulled all of my lifters to be examined, and am soliciting feedback on what to do about them.

To remove each lifter the cam caps and nuts washers need to come out with the cams. I then taped a heavy duty telescoping magnet such as to not mar the lifter surface and using the magnet you pull them gently and straight out. The oil should allow them to glide right out. (photo1)

Photo 2 shows the inside of the lifter bucket, with its collet visible.

Photo 3 shows the oil in/out hole. Less than half of my lifters (48) out of the car showed the ability for me to press the collet and feel it deform a bit and have oil come out of the drain hole. We will see what that means.

Photo 4 shows the whole kit and kaboodle on the bench.
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Alternator reinstalled. Perfect fit (photo 1)

Tensioners greased and reassembled. (photo 2)

Next up...some serious advanced engineering for my 550. Some GOLD engineering (photo 3)
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No reason to go lookin for trouble while none exists. Racing hydraulic lifter cars we just listened for noise. I never learned any preemptive ways to deal that really worked. But always willing to learn a new trick.

 

Moorfan,
You've lost control and I know we like it!
We are all learning a lot with your post and time spent sharing.
Amazing actually. Hoping that you don't get so deep that the enjoyment fades before you drive it.
A great effort.
Bill
FL

 

Pete, would you provide more step by step pictures when you set the tensioner and timing belt. You are going to be the first one proving all this valuable information to people like me on this forum which is greatly appreciated, by the way how you are going to check the belt tension. do you have sonic tensiometer. Thanks. Sark

 

Sark,
Yes, I will be happy to take more pictures.
It appears that letting the spring set the tension is NOT the right answer with these belts. I purchased a Motoreva MT112 sonic tension meter to check the tension of the belts prior to fastening down the tensioner bearing. There is some play between the bolt used to fasten the bearing down and the actual inner shaft dimension of the bearing, allowing for something other than just letting the spring set the tension.

The bigger question is what I will set the belts to...the old 550 numbers are probably not right based on my reading and I should be using 575 or 612 recommendations to do it. I'll be gathering info on that as well.

Thanks for following along!
Pete