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Fduct part 2 Mercedes

Discussion in 'F1' started by Ferraripilot, Oct 18, 2011.

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  1. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    #1 Ferraripilot, Oct 18, 2011
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    Anyone check out what Mercedes' is up to? They have designed a passive f-duct for the front wing and they tested it at free practice in Suzuka. Whitmarsh is stating that if Mercedes has a grasp on this technology and setup that even if teams started developing this stuff NOW that it will be too late. Estimated advantage is 6-8kph, but the big advantage will be the additional airflow under the body of the car. If Merc is smart (which I am sure they are!) they will have developed a super high flow system at the front of the nose which flows as much air as possible from the nose to the wing. This all is of course to aid the diffuser with volume and combat the effect that the 2012 lower noses will have. How on earth this information became public I have no idea.....
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  2. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    #2 Bas, Oct 18, 2011
    Unless it'll be banned soon, all the teams will have this next season.

    No idea who put this out in the open...:(
     
  3. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    #3 Ferraripilot, Oct 18, 2011

    That's the thing, Whitmarsh came out and said himself that even if other teams started developing this now it is too late. I am sure MB are developing their entire car around this the same as RB designed RB8 around teh EBD.

    Understand that the 2012 cars are for most teams are already partially built. Building the survival cels and other assemblies that a looooooong time. So even beginning to develop a front wing like this requires many hours in the wind tunnel not to mention the countless hours assembling the thing NOT to mention the fact that they are unable to design the rest of their car around this concept.
     
  4. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    #4 Bas, Oct 18, 2011
    I doubt that. With last years F-duct it took most teams 4-6 races to get theirs up and running. Now they have 6 months.
     
  5. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    #5 Ferraripilot, Oct 18, 2011

    Not a fair comparison. The F-duct was a very simple device which stalled the rear wing. The front wing is a completely new set of issues. A can of worms of issues if you will.
     
  6. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #6 Fast_ian, Oct 18, 2011
    They put it on the car in Korea? - It's public! Gonna pop over and see what images Sutton got hold of..... Watch this space ;)

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  7. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #7 Fast_ian, Oct 18, 2011
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    Hmmmph.... Seems Sutton didn't want to get wet on Friday :(

    Only pic vaguely of interest below - Some duct looking thing there but no close ups of the nose itself.

    Cheers,
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  8. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    #8 Ferraripilot, Oct 18, 2011


    No no. They only tested a prototype at first practice at Suzuka. No other use at all.
     
  9. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    #9 Ferraripilot, Oct 18, 2011

    This is a duct Schumacher only has, and he had the same thing on most of his Ferrari's. I think it's just a cooling vent.
     
  10. Far Out

    Far Out F1 Veteran

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    #10 Far Out, Oct 18, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2011
    You guys have to clearly distinguish between the exhaust blown diffusor, which uses exhaust gas to increase the air mass flow under the car, and the f-duct, which causes stall at the rear wing when activated.

    The Mercedes system pictured here has IMHO nothing to do with the f-duct (=creating stall), it simply channels the air under the front wing. I wonder if the effect really is that big, as the inlet cross section in the nose is pretty small. The F-duct only needed a small inlet because for creating the stall effect, you need just a little additional air flow in the right place. For really increasing the air mass flow under the car, you'd need a bigger opening.
     
  11. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    #11 Ferraripilot, Oct 18, 2011

    I agree it's not really anything near the original 'f-duct' but the media is calling it 'f-duct part dieux' and the like so I am now officially bound to that terminology ! haha.


    No, the purpose of this has nothing to do with stalling the wing. Inspect the two oval shaped winglets just inboard of the second wing element which are positioned just behind where the air is meant to exit the front wing duct. These winglets are to direct air under the car creating more volume leading back to the diffuser. With more CFM from the nose and a cleaner duct path through the wing uprights attaching to the nose, this could be a beneficial amount of air making a real difference. This also has benefits for yaw of the car in corners.
     
  12. maulaf

    maulaf Formula 3

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    #12 maulaf, Oct 18, 2011
    We can all recall last year how Mercedes kept running into trouble with their F-duct, and Brawn stated back then that they were working on a passive (rear wing) F-duct system, as he rightly expected the active one to get banned. As it turned out the rules went further and also avoided his passive system.
    The point is, that it is a friggen mission to develop a relyable passive system that gives you the vortex on the straight, but allows the airflow to realign as you break into the turn! Obviously the most important factor of drivability of a car is that you can trust its behaviour.

    So I'd doubt that other teams can just copycat the idea and end up with their own solution over night. Remember it took the Mercs almost a full season from Melbourne on to get the passive F-duct to be installed and then also do what they wanted it to do. I'd suspect a front wing system to be more tricky but that is only speculation

    Possible is that other teams looked into that as well, who knows.

    Just my few cents
     
  13. Far Out

    Far Out F1 Veteran

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    #13 Far Out, Oct 18, 2011
    Yes, it's clear how it works, but I doubt that the small opening will allow for a big enough air mass flow to really make a difference. The original F-duct only needed small amounts of air to work, so a small opening did the job. The EBD or any kind diffusor needs as much air as possible, and I doubt the small hole will be significant in comparison to the air already flowing under the car (or through the exhaust).
     
  14. Alex1015

    Alex1015 Formula Junior

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    #14 Alex1015, Oct 18, 2011
    Not really, crash structures (noses) need to be homologated in the coming months.

    Finally it's not something you can just add on. The front wing is upstream of the rest of the car and will affect everything else.
     
  15. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    #15 Ferraripilot, Oct 18, 2011

    I think it will depend on how they design their new nose and what sort of velocity and volume of air they will be able to be directed through the uprights, which should probably be canted backwards if their goal is to maintain as much velocity as possible.
     
  16. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    #16 Ferraripilot, Oct 18, 2011

    +1 exactly what I have been saying. The front wing doing this means the entire car needs to be built around this concept to make it work. For others it will be an afterthought, just as the EBD was for many teams.
     
  17. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #17 VIZSLA, Oct 18, 2011
    The drawing is from a well known Italian source.
     
  18. Ferraripilot

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    #18 Ferraripilot, Oct 18, 2011

    right! and I've been thinking that if MB didn't want anyone really knowing about this they certainly have the resources to make that very possible. Whitmarsh caught wind of it first and several photographers obtained many fantastic and up-close shots of the thing. If MB cared they would have never ever allowed this IMO. However, considering the front wing is such an important part, I fail to see how anyone is going to quite catch up to this technology even now and have it be any more than an afterthought such as how Ferrari and MB applied their respective EBDs (they work but not great).
     
  19. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #19 Fast_ian, Oct 18, 2011
    Not arguing, but source please - I searched a little, and nothing showed up for me.

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  20. Ferraripilot

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    #20 Ferraripilot, Oct 18, 2011
    No problem. I found it blabbed seemingly all over the place


    http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=155944

    http://www.auto123.com/en/racing-news/formula-1/f1-mercedes-invents-front-wing-f-duct-for-2012?artid=136772&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=racing


    http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-mercedes-invents-front-wing-f-duct-for-2012-report-2/


    http://www.yallaf1.com/2011/10/18/mercedes-invents-front-wing-f-duct-for-2012/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Yallaf1com+%28YallaF1.com%29
     
  21. VIZSLA

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    #21 VIZSLA, Oct 18, 2011
    They're not worried because its too late for anyone to copy it this year. It's also too late to do them much good. :)
    I'm not sure why it's labeled an F duct though. The Macca F duct was a stall inducing device unlike this one.
     
  22. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #22 Fast_ian, Oct 18, 2011
    The same drawing and a couple of pix of nothing plus lots of blabbing does not (IMO) equal anything as grandiose as you seem to be suggesting.

    There's nothing there that's not already been done. A little teeny hole in the nose is not going to have that much effect. MW is just trying to keep us interested - Again, IMHO.

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  23. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #23 tifosi12, Oct 18, 2011
    +1
     
  24. Ferraripilot

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    #24 Ferraripilot, Oct 18, 2011

    I will say this again. This is the front wing we are talking about, not the rear. The front wing is a completely different set of complications as it very much sets the stage for what the rest of the car is doing. This is NOT something that can be adopted easily, and even the great brains at Mclaren know this (from Whitmarsh's mouth).
     
  25. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #25 tifosi12, Oct 18, 2011
    I get the argument that because it is the front wing it affects the air that goes over/under the body of the car and hence affects the aero of the entire car.

    However this is F1: If a team sees this (or any other) solution as the silver bullet they will simply ditch whatever they have now and start from scratch. At least a big team like RB with all the resources.

    Remember when Brawn won the WDC? Their car didn't even have a motor to construct the rear end around by the time December rolled up. They built/designed the rear half in January.

    If RB thinks the solution MB found is worth copying, they will do so. I'm certain they have already run CFD simulations. As has any other team worth its salt.

    Personally I think Newey is sand bagging by making statements that they haven't even designed the suspension yet (or whatever). But even if they haven't, it might be just for that very reason: Lets see and wait what the competition comes up with by November and take the best of it. RB certainly has the resources to build a car "overnight" if push comes to shove.
     
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