Weekly Topic - Major Service- what does is truly necessary model by model.

Ok guys,

SO i have gotten a ton of emails that have shown me that many people truly do not understand what a major service really includes and why it is necessary on belt driven engines. So i have dedicated this weeks topic to a conversation that explains it car by car and to allow for questions to be made public for everyone's benefit.

First off, most of the confusion is really the fault of the dealers for either not understanding what is needed themselves or for not being able to make it clear. IN fairness, it is complicated because certain items are virtually mandatory on one car yet optional on another. (ex. is valve cover and and cam seals on a 355 versus a 360). One little caveat here i will not just discuss what is mandated in the owners manual but i will go further giving you our expert opinions to better protect you the drivers.

Lets clear up a few pieces of bad information:
1) There is no such thing as a "Belt Service".

Many times a cheap price insinuates that it is a major service but really they are only changing the belts. A major service requires much more than that (but specifically.. if you change the belts you must change the tensioner bearing as well).

Plus the major service is not just a term but specifically includes items (depending on the car) such as All belts (some models have up to 5 belts - for example, timing belt(s), alternator/water pump, a/c belts, power steering belts etc). the tensioner bearing (arguably the most important component which along with the belts keeps the timing correct and the motor running properly), CHANGING both of the air filter (s) and pollen filter (s), CHANGING (not just topping off) all of the fluids (including the brake fluid, the engine oil, the gearbox fluid, anti-freeze and windshield washer fluid, cleaning and inspecting the brakes (inspection only -not changing pads or rotors) and on some models replacing the valve covers and cam seals/gaskets and the spark plugs (again depends on the type of plug and the model of the car). Also we perform a clutch read out (if applicable) and engine parameters check to determine if there are any current or future issues imminent plus a full 101 Point Multi-Point Inspection- with color printout for your records and update and stamp of the Service Manual with Dealer Seal.

2) "Annual fluid service should take about half hour just like a ford. an oil change is and oil change." -

OK this part of the service may make sense but it is not correct. The difference is the dis-assembly of the car to gain access to the fluids to drain them properly. ON some models it can take up to 2 hours to disassemble car to reach the belly pans and about the same to reassemble it. Note that an oil change only can be done without full dis-assembly although it is better if the oil is drained from below rather than sucked out from the top (please do not confuse oil top off with an oil change - which we have seen with shrewd descriptions).

3) Which cars require new spark plugs?

This really depends on the type of spark plug that the car requires. Most of the plugs are long lasting platinum tipped plugs that require change after up to 40,000 miles but some of the spark plugs require change every 3 years regardless. In reality the older cars should have the plugs changed more frequently because you run the risk of poor performance or breaking down just because the plugs are fouled even thought the books say every certainly number of miles. The newer EFI cars with platinum plugs will last much longer.

4) Does a Major service require the changing of the Valve Covers and Cam Seals? well this is a bit confusing. Some models require that you inspect it only and replace if necessary (which woudl be additional work required). But there is a bit more than black and white requirements here. For example both the 355 and the 360 require an inspeciton and replace if leaking only and for the 360 that is fine because access to them is much easier and access can be made with much less work after the fact if they later start leaking. But for the 355 where labor hours are about 40 hours (due to dis-assembly required versus 1/3 of that for a 360) combined with the fact that the 355 is much more prone to leaking (just about 100% of the time) the Seals and gasket replacement is include don a 355 while it is only necessary if they are visibly leaking on a 360. In short it is included in the 355 Major Service while it is an add-on if necessary (why charge you if you don't need it!!!)

5) Do I need to perform a major services if i have not put a lot of miles on my car but it has been 3 years?

This is another tricky issue. The original maintenance requirements for most of the cars were required by mileage only. However, many factory updates are suggesting a 3 year limit regardless. The reason for this is that the belts dry up and crack over time and the bearings can do the same

In our opinion this is a no brainer. it is a simple risk versus reward analysis. While we all agree that this maintenance is not cheap, the risk of not performing this maintenance is a total and complete catastrophic engine failure resulting in basically "totaling" the Ferrari. Performing maintenance. Maybe it is our racing background or maybe it is because i have been stranded in my classic car before but I believe maintenance is simply a fact of life. I mean if you eat poorly and do not exercise then you will have health issues, poor performance and remain sedentary and most likely you will shorten your life span. Well the same is true for your beloved Ferrari.

6) Going to a NON-Ferrari repair shop is the same as going to a Ferrari Dealership.

Ok ok ok.. so i admit i am biased on this one but here are a few facts you should consider:
(a) Only an Authorized Dealership can properly document the service records for your official records. This will help with resale and if you ever want to have the car sold by an authorized dealer this is required for the car to be sold as a Certified Pre-owned Car
(b) If the Service is done by an Authorized Ferrari Dealer then there is a 2 year warranty on all Ferrari parts installed by that dealer . While this is not a total warranty it does mean that if the part fails (for example the timing belt) it will cover the damage under warranty. That in my mind is HUGE!!!!
(c) only Authorized shops have up to date training and updates from Ferrari
(d) only an Authorized Ferrari dealer can check and complete update campaigns and recalls which are covered by Ferrari for the life of the vehicle (not just during the warranty period)
(e)Use of Ferrari OEM parts is guarantee (at least by us). We will not use non-OEM parts unless they are unavailable anymore from Ferrari. This is critical in keeping your car running properly. Many shops take short cuts b/c non-Ferrari parts are so much cheaper. While it may be tempting to increase profit we will not do this at your expense.
(f) Guaranteed that the work was performed (this one really really pisses me off personally). Ferrari dealerships don't just come and go and we have so much more to lose in terms of reputation or losing the dealership entirely if we cheat the customer. But small shops often come and go.

To show you why this angers me and to end with a little anecdote....Here is what happened recently that made me list this. A customer came in to our store to trade a 360 and claimed he had service records to prove that the car had recently received a major service. We agreed to give him a trade price based on that fact. When he brought in the records it showed that the service was performed by a shop close to us. The date of the RO was about 5 months ago and it was performed for the owner (a small independent dealership) who had sold this customer the car. However, something didn't smell right. Since the service shop buys parts from us I asked our parts guy to pull the records and see when he purchased the parts last. The response i received was what really made us nervous. Paraphrasing but here is what my guys said "that's so funny. He just called a day ago to get a quote on these parts and he has never ordered them before". We called the shop and he finally admitted that he did not do the work and had produced the invoice to help out his good customer (the dealer that had sold the car to the customer). WOW!!!!!!!!!! Here is the sad part, whether or not we took the car in on trade the previous customer has been driving and unserviced car vulnerable to engine failure yet thinking he is safe and having paid for that service!!!! Had we accepted the R.O. as fact then we may have sold the car to an unsuspecting customer and made guarantees to him as well.

That is why it is so important to ensure not only that the work has done but that it was done by a reputable place who is knowledgeable.

Ok. Well I hope this topic sparks some discussion and please feel free to ask questions or add to this post. My goal is to start a weekly discussion that is rewarding to all of my fellow Ferrari lovers,
Garrett

 

i'm doing my belts, etc right now. if anyone complains about high labour costs on these cars i will personally drive over to their house and beat them soundly with a cresent wrench. four hours just to get the front bank cover off. twenty minutes finagaling one cover screw out. the a/c compressor is now somewhere out in the backyard. spent nearly an hour wrestling with the water pump before i gave up and called it a day. nothing to it...

 

HAHA!! Well Said. I am not laughing at you and I do understand. Do you need any help from my guys? I mean info and telephone help. of course if you need someone to step in and finish it for you we can help as well but i really meant do you need any advice.
Thanks for chiming in Garrett

Garrett

 

Garrett,

Thank you for your detailed post and information. What are your thoughts on the Hill Engineering Tensioner bearings vs the Ferrari Bearing? Just curious.

 

The reason I ask about the Hill Bearings is that many people view these as superior to the Ferrari bearing. If that is true I can certainly understand people wanting to use them and then we would not be using cheaper parts but a more expensive and better part.

 

I am sorry that i didnt answer sooner but I was away from a computer for a day or so traveling.

Great questions. I have mixed views on this one. First off, i have heard that they are better from some peopel yet others swear by Ferrari parts being that they engineered the part to begin with.

I admit i may be a bit biased considering i am a Ferrari dealer. But, if the part failed (which i have never seen an OEM Ferrari Bearing fail) they woudl be on the hook during the warranty period. So this begs the question as to why would you want a part that is SUPPOSEDLY better than a part that has been very reliable. There are no performance improvements. I jsut dont see the value.

Also with Ferrari's new 2 year warranty on all Ferrari parts installed by a Ferrair dealer how could you turn that down for a more expensive and supposedly better part.

THis is my opinion but I would love to get some feedback from anyone who sees a different point of view.

I hope that you find this helpful,
Garrett

 

I appreciate your opinion. In my opinion if the Ferrari bearings were covered for 3 years (since that is the change interval) I would use them in a heartbeat since I would have piece of mind if something happened. It seems odd to me that they have a 2 year warranty when the change interval is 3 years, thanks.

 

I understand your point of view but the warranty is on EVERY FERRARI part not just this one so it is not tied to the service interval. It is a wonderful program that Ferrair has recently rolled out. Plus if it the part fails then warranty covers the ancillary damage. I dont know of any other brand that would do that including hill.

So 2 years is noy as good as 3 but a hell of a lot better than none.

Better yet i would love to learn what you think is better about the Hill Engineering bearing that will give you advantages. I am never above learning something new and from my current point of view i dont see any reason to use them. BUt i am open to learn.
Thanks
Garrett

 

I have searched FChat and it appears that the general opinion is that the Hill Bearings are at least as good as if not better than the Ferrari Bearing from some of the members here that are well respected members of the community. Like you, I am trying to learn as well and welcome all opinions so I can understand all aspects of this debate.

 

Here is one of the threads I was looking at (there are others):

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=297353&highlight=hill+engineering

 

thanx for the offer mate. i've got the good fellows at smith motorworrks here in panama city offering to back me up, or perhaps i should say cajoling me along. no, i'll just plod along and eventually it'll get done. then i'll have the satisfaction of saying, "i did it myself" yeah, that's what i'll say while the slowly drive me away to someplace quite where they haven't heard of timing belts. keep 'em flying!

 

This is a fantastic thread and I sincerely thank you for (A) starting it and (B) providing illuminating info. I recently acquired a Ferrari Testarossa. What attracted me to the car the most was that it had been serviced exclusively since new by the same authorized Ferrari dealer. The car is now scheduled to get its major done at the same dealer. My friends are pressing me to go to an independent but to me it is a no brainer. As you expressed, I like knowing that I have a reputable dealer and Ferrari N.A. to stand behind the parts and workmanship, and that, if I ever go to sell the car, the pedigree will be indisputable, as will the quality of the workmanship.

I do have one question that really burns me up. What is it about Ferraris and their valve cover gaskets/ cam seals? It seems like on the 80's and 90'sFerraris, as soon as they hit three or four years the valve cover gaskets start leaking, along with cam seals, etc, regardless of whether they have been sitting or driven regularly. I've been around lots of high end cars and I don't know of another company that has this issue. It's really annoying and adds a good bit of money to an already expensive service interval. I would love some insight.

Again, thank you so much for making yourself and your dealer available to answer our questions. If I lived in your region, I would definitely utilize your services.

 

I have seen a few threads on the headers on the 355 failing every 30k miles where aftermarket ones do not...........

 

THis is a great question. But get ready becasue there is no SIMPLE answer. They can leak for a variety of reasons but here goes:
1) The cars have evolved much farther in the past 10 years then they have in the 50 years before that. It was generally acceptable at that time that the cars leaked a little oil . I agree that it shouldnt but the original design was focused on performance not on the leaking. THe main reasion is that the engines are designed with a ton of oil pressure. But not all cars leak and here are the compouding easons:

- The gaskets are very brittle and fragile. If they are twisted or tweaked during install they can break very easily.

- Many customers have tried to use synthetic oil (a modern marvel of engineering which the gaskets were not designed for). The gaskets dont hold up well to contact with synthetic oil

- some times the leaks come from the many lines rather than the seals/gaskets

So in short the high pressure combined with motors early in the evolution end up having potential leaks compounded by potential human errors. Many of the cars we have seen do not need the seals and gaskets replaced. BUt often it is better to perform this maintenance while the car is torn down.

I hope that you find this information helpful.
Garrett

 

I am really enjoying these threads. I hope everyone here realizes and recognizes that most dealers are nor up to this level of discourse. You really show that you walk the walk and not just talk the talk with your well reasoned, researched and thought out responses. I always liked and respected you, but I think you have taken it to a whole new level. Thanks and keep up the good work.

Scottie

 

Well thank you very much. I am actually enjoying it. Please feel free to ask away and i will make an effort to include topics in the discussions.

Have a great night,
Garrett

 

+1.

 

Thanks for contributing. What is recommended for newer models, particularly, the 458?

 

I agree 100%!! I hope my comment was taken as repectful and with the intent to add further information to the discussion, and not as a swipe at dealers. I admit, sometimes my communication style can be a bit terse, especially written where tone is difficult to convey.

 

I want to chime on hill engineering, it is a know fact that many parts on Ferrari come from other manufacturers which seems to be decreasing with each new model or they cover it up better.

Some of these parts seem to be inferior and hill engineers these parts to a higher standard than the factory.

As I understand the tensioners usually fail before the belts. Per the belt manufacturer, they are suppose to last 60k miles especially the ones with kevlar.


Its nice to see a dealer owner chime if even if its a slightly bias view.

 

+1

 

Great thread, Garrett. Thank you.

 

I am sorry but i must have missed your earlier comment. I didnt take any offense whatsoever ot any of the discussions. BUt no worries i am here for an open conversation. So please feel free to communicate however you would like.

Garrett

 

I will answer this on monday if that is ok. I am late for an engagement party. FOr those of you who know my assistant/niece Venessa please feel free to congratulate her

 

Thank you as well for participating. I actually do not think i am biased when it comes to this topic actually. But let me clarify it for everyone.

I think the Hill Engineering bearings are terrific. I jsut cannot see the advantage. Here is my point of view. 1) no performance improvement from using a diffeent tensioner bearing. 2) that means that the only benefit will be that it possibly may last longer, 3) since both bearings still suggest similar life spans the Ferrari part has worked well with very little failure so long as the car is maintained and Ferrar is now offering a 2 year warranty that will cover the failure that would result in the failure of that part. In plain english if hte engine blows up due to the failed bearing during the warranty period, Ferrari will cover it. That is the kicker. HOw much better can you get than that????

Obviously i am enthusiastic about that b/c it is like having an insurance policy. i simply cant see the benefit to changing to a different "good" bearing and losing that security from Ferrari. am i missing something? WIth that said I agree as a dealer i could be biased but i think i have thought htis out pretty objectively.

Please keep this going as i am enjoying seeing your other point of view.
Garrett