2011 FORMULA 1 AIRTEL GRAND PRIX OF INDIA: RACE *** Spoilers ***

Another case of 50% DNA dilution.

Like Senna, Hill, Lauda, Piquet, Sheckter et aliter

 

WasYoda watching the Pats while posting to?

 

I think this has been Massas downfall for the past 2-3 years, ever since Lewis beat him for the WDC, actually.

There are guys who can run it to the ragged edge and stay there comfortably, and guys who can't. I think Massa is a guy who can't... and most of his problems can be attributed to that.

When he needs to make a pass and it's obvious he should have the speed for it, he often seems to flub it, like he was feeling the pressure and let his pride overtake his talent. Same in the rain.

 

The stewards were wrong today, without doubt. Hamilton was not on the racing line, hence the clouds of dust behind him as he went towards the side of massa. Massa had taken the same swinging race line every lap before, and Hamilton had seen that line at close range the previous lap. In the post race interview, Hamilton admitted he tried to back out of the move as he knew he wouldn't have the room....... not the words of someone who strongly felt he had the right of way!

After the crash, hamilton, when trying to pass other cars, did not even attempt to travel through turn 5 near them, even though, if he felt he was justified against massa, he should not have had any concerns IF the line was his to take. It clearly wasn't and he knew it

To all those who think massa should have backed out and let him through - exactly where was massa to go, straight off, slow down, let him through then carry on behind him? What for, he was on the racing line, in an evenly matched car.

Hamiltons head is not there these days, he needs a break, and I don't think he needs to race again this year, he is a big off waiting to happen

 

there is another explanation, one you would never want to admit

Which is that Rosberg is a damn good driver... and MS is just doing better as of late.

Rosberg is no slouch. I think he would give Alonso a run for his money at Ferrari. Not beat him, but he would not be anything like Massa.

 

Have you raced competitively wheel-to-wheel on the track? It doesn't sound like it.

Everyone seems pretty much in agreement this was Massa's fault.

The race announcers. The stewards. And the vast majority of people here.

If it was required that a trailing driver pull in front of a leading driver, then get on the racing line and maintain that position under braking into the next turn, or he had to give up the position - there would never be any passes in F1. Massa was on the outside... he looked over and saw Lewis... being on the outside he could carry more speed through the turn, as is the nature of corners But if you have someone on the inside, you can't just cut right over to the apex and slam into them. As I said, if that was allowed and the fault of the inside driver, there would never be any passes in F1.

This was all Massa's fault. He can't handle it when he's dicing it up with Hamilton - he just refuses to let him pass and will crash before he admits defeat. And considering he's infinitely less talented, defeat is usually what's going to happen when Massa goes up against Lewis.

I agree with what previous posters said. Massa is focusing like a laserbeam on Lewis. He needs to get his head straight and worry about himself. He's doing atrociously compared to Alonso, and when he gets dropped from Ferrari, he likely doesn't have a lot of options, certainly not at top teams.

He needs to match his results to the capability of the car. Right now Alonso is making him look like a total hack.

 

Perfectly stated as always Mike, Massa is a Hack and the sooner he is gone from Ferrari the better. The guy is a twit who should have never even been in a position to be running for the Championship in 2008, had Kimi not had his head up his arse.

 

Yes I thought the majority of the blame should go to Massa. But LH needs to learn how to keep himself out of trouble ... as you can't win races having crashes.

Pete

 

I didn't see the collision on TV (cuz my DVR apparently had a mind of it's own), so i can't comment on the specifics of this incident, but i'm not sure that i completely agree with the gneral suggestion.

If a driver indeed has what i'll call the "natural" racing line ... which would be the fastest racing line, absent any other drivers ... AND he's in the lead, it's not his job to avoid anybody. If the leader is "naturally" turning into the apex, and a collision occurs between the leader's inside rear tire and the follower's outside front tire ... the collision is not the leader's fault. It's the follower's job to brake and avoid the collision, rather than forcing the shunt.

I maintain this position, even if the leader sees the follower (because surely, the follower sees the leader as well ) Even if the follower is known to be aggressive & reckless. Even if the follower is closing fast. Even if all the commentators disagree with me

Now, there seems to be debate as to whether Massa indeed had the natural racing line, or did Hamilton? Maybe neither? Rarely, are such situations so cut & dry that one driver had the natural line, 100%. And i haven't seen this particular incident well enough to judge, and i don't know the track at all So certainly, my comments are more general than specific.

 

Interestingly, the BBC crew thought LH would get a penalty, but hoped he wouldn't. They sounded very surprised when it was Massa that got the penalty.

 

I thought it was Hamilton's fault, FWIW. I have only watched it once but it looked like Hamilton still had room to his left and should have used it while braking to avoid tangling with Massa and waited for a better opportunity.

Great racers find the proper place to pass.....most of the time, but they also make moves to establish dominance/pecking order and some of these duels become legendary and some just come off as stupid.

Watching Alonso and Weber dueling this year has been rewarding at times. On the other hand, it seems like Hamilton has been less than patient and it is showing in his poor results. No question that Hamilton and Massa are squaring off both on and off the track and giving no quarter, but Massa had position on Hamilton in this case.

JMHO. Apparently, the professionals saw it differently. Well, most of them. There you have it. Massa penalized, Hamilton going to the parts bin again, and his teamate Button outperforming him with ever greater regularity.

 

Man, watched the race later in the morning (DVRed), and freaking speed cut it out at lap 57 (WTF?). Is there a place to watch the interviews? I already know the finishing order thanks to several posts a few pages behind.

And also that Vettel broke the most laps led record. Some argue it's not apples to oranges due to 16 vs 19 races, but that comparison is not accurate, due to different tracks and different # of laps due to refueling. If those who question that record want to be precise, they need to count TOTAL LAPS on that season, vs 2011. I bet it's almost a wash. But with 2 races remaining, the guy will probably smash it regardless. And RB also smashed the all time poles from a constructor.

I think Vettel also had the perfect race (pole, win, ALL laps led, and fastest lap), something nobody had done since Ayrton Senna 19 years ago. Pretty cool. He's equaled MS with 13 wins, with 2 more races to go. One more and he could equal the record. Two more and he'd surpass it, but I honestly doubt he'd be that lucky to win the last 2 in a row. I'm also stunned at the reliability of most cars, even with trannies extended from 4 to 5 races. It's just astonishing IMO.

Finally, I don't think I'd be breaking any forum rules, but if you guys want to see a ton of pictures of every F1 race, check out the m3post site. Don't know where the hell that guy gets the pics, but are always fantastic. Few posts, but tons of pictures; a good complement to this site . Here's the link to India's race:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=599220

Hope everybody had a great weekend.

 

Interestingly in the post race analysis the pundits and ex-racers have swung heavily against Massa. They're been showing footage of Massa looking in his mirrors then turning in on Ham anyway.

 

John, as was the case for a lot of time last year, Webber was out performing Vettel. As soon as Hamilton gets his head together, I have feeling that Button will be in the same situation as Webbo this year.

 

I think the blame is 50/50. Both driver knew the other wasn't going to give way, so that's what happens. I thought neither deserved a penalty since they both screwed their own races. In my opinion, there's no need to penalize when the act carried it's own bad consequence.


Mark

 

Agreed. Rosberg is very quick and he would run circles around Massa in the same car. When I read Tifosi's comments I know that he doesn't actually believe that Rosberg is on Massa's level and is instead just undermining Schu's results.

 

Incorrect, MS last did this in 2004 Hungarian Grand Prix, and has done this 5 times.
Pete

 

+1

I believe Massa was penalised in an attempt to get him to pull his head in.
Pete

 

You might be right, but it shouldn't really come into it.

Like I said, BBC guys were very surprised.

 

Racing just doesn't work like that. If a driver on line in front had a divine right to ignore anything that was not even with his front wheels, then there would be no passing in F1 or almost any other motorsport. It just doesn't work the way you suggest. When you watch the replay, Hamilton was on the inside, and prior to braking, he was a little in front. He was taking the inside line, so he had to go slower and braked a fraction earlier. Massa carried more speed and braked later and was on the outside... he went for the apex and Lewis was there, and the crash happened.

If it was the case that such a move laid blame on the driver on the inside, then this is how every pass would happen in F1. You could just barrel into the corner on the outside, brake later and go for the apex (late in, late out) and the guy inside would have to slam on the brakes or get a penalty. But as I said, racing just doesn't work this way.

That's why Massa was penalized. He didn't "have" the corner. He went for the apex and crashed into Hamilton.

You will get thrown out of any race series you participate in after the second time you do this and they realize the first time wasn't brain-fade. Like I said, racing just doesn't work like that. If someone tucks down the inside, you give racing room. Better yet, you don't give them the option to duck down the inside, but in this case, Lewis was on a charge and had a lot more speed... he was on the inside because he took Massa coming out of the previous corner and looked to actually be ahead before they braked.

 

When Shu was doing bad, there were a lot of excuses given - some by myself. I thought he was probably rusty, needed to get used to the tires and heavy fuel loads, etc. People chastised those comments and said it was beyond clear he needs to retire, he was making a fool of himself, tarnishing his legacy, taking a well-deserved spot away from a younger driver.

Etc, etc.


I note with bemusement that the excuses have now turned the other way.

Now it's said that Rosberg just isn't himself. It's team orders and Nico is being told not to pass MS, and on and on.

Meanwhile, Michael is just 5 points behind Nico, despite having 5 DNF's to Nico's 3. And he has beaten Nico in every race since the halfway point in Germany.

The conclusion is obvious. Nico is no slouch, and MS was just rusty and "still has it".

Excellent.

I would LOVE to see the Mercedes be as dominant next year as the Red Bull is this year. Nothing would make me happier than Shue on the top step of the podium. He deserves it.

 

Twas a good drive by MS. Starting to get to terms with the car/tyres me thinks. Really was able to gap Nico easily.

Pete

 

It was a fluke

 

But racing does work, just as i've described.

If you have the lead, and you have the line, the collision blame belongs to the follower. To suggest otherwise, means that the leader is "obligated" to go off-line to allow the pass (or avoid collision with the follower). No racing series works that way.

The leader, on the racing line, is in no way obligated to go "off-line", in order to give room to the kamikaze shunting himself down the inside (all the while staying behind the leader). I've seen it, been there personally ... the follower, forcing the shunt from off-line, is the one penalized. Honestly, this is pretty basic stuff in my experience.

Now ... was Hamilton in front, for a moment, as you suggest? If that's the case, maybe Massa does deserve the blame. But that point supports my argument, not yours Again, my comments are more general than specific, cuz i haven't seen good views of the incident.

And yes, there would still be plenty of passing in F1 without the on-line leader giving passing-room to the off-line follower. In contrast, if a kamikaze move down the inside (from behind, from off-line) meant that the leader had to "give way", and leave the racing line to avoid contact ... we'd see nothing but these moves in Formula One!

 

While my post might seem unrelated, bear with me and hopefully you will see the point I am trying to make .

Many, many years ago I used to race (for fun) indoor go karts with a couple of friends. The local place had a Tuesday evening race series thing happening and it was great fun and a lot of people that actually raced cars (like me) did this for a cheap bit of fun. Anyway my team won the series and when it came around to next years series I was having trouble getting my mates interested again, but they agreed to come and watch the first round before they decided if they were still interested enough.

So I went out in the first race and a few laps in I realised I'd left a gap up the inside and this guy was starting to pass me ... in a panic I did a Massa and closed the door on him and caused solid contact. I then remembered that to block a passing move you have to do it so the car/kart never gets along side at all ...

My mates laughed at me, saying yeah you really blocked that guy you idiot, and we did not bother racing the series again ... because we really were not interested enough

My point, Massa should have taken a tighter line into the corner to block LH, you don't just suddenly slam the door shut causing contact. Massa left the door open, LH pounced ... Massa realised his mistake and caused the contact! Bad driving, just like me in the kart.
Pete