2011 FORMULA 1 AIRTEL GRAND PRIX OF INDIA: RACE *** Spoilers ***

Honestly, I'm confident he would be doing better than Webber has in this year's Red Bull. We'll never know unless Benz can deliver a good car, but I am sure MS can win races even at his age. His driving this year has really impressed me, especially when contrasted with his "adjustment" year last year. I certainly don't think Nico has gotten any worse, MS has simply come to grips with the cars again after being away and he definitely still "has it" as you said.

 

To clarify my point, in general :

One scenario :

Driver A has the racing line. Never leaves it. This includes hitting the classic apex, with the widest possible radius around the turn. This driver maintains the lead, the whole time.

Driver B attempts a pass, by taking the "inside line". The "inside line" is not the racing line ... it's the off-line, pass-attempt line. Driver B attempts a kamikaze move, down the inside. AT NO POINT IN TIME does Driver B get in front of Driver A.

Collision occurs as Driver A turns into the apex. Collision between Driver A rear tire, and Driver B front tire.

Who gets the blame? This is the general situation i've described, where Driver A keeps the line, AND keeps the lead, the entire time.

Is the answer different, if both drivers also happened to see each other?

Different scenario :

Driver A has the racing line. Driver B comes down the inside, off-line. But BUT BUT ... by "out-braking" Driver A, Driver B actually gets the lead into the turn. Driver A attempts to keep the line, but turns into Driver B as he tries to hit the apex. Driver A front tire hits Driver B rear tire.

Who gets the blame?

These are NOT the same scenarios. Racing 101

I still don't know which scenario more accurately describes the (latest) Massa/Hamilton collision Sounds like (at least) the BBC commentators thought, as i "suspect", that the first scenario more accurately matches today's collision. Racing stewards, thought otherwise.

 

Right. It really was the tires and car last year for Michael. And this year it's still the car as the W02 is a terrifying Dr Jekyl and Mr Hyde situation as the car is in essence two different cars with full load and no load (the CoG severely changes due to the fuel tank location and height). Michael just has the ability to drive around the issues better than Nico and I believe is also smarter in a sense that he sets the car up very differently than Nico. Everyone should also take note that Nico has absolutely bashed his tires this season. He is tons harder on them than Michael

 

This is the forth time this season Lewham has pulled the same shunt. If anyone watched all the follow up on BBC after the race, they even did a little coverage with videos from the previous times. Monaco, Singapore, Japan and now India.
Hambone's driving reminds me of a friend of mine when we are playing videogames. When he can not take a turn, he uses another car as a guard rail that guides him back into the right track. Hamilton does very similar move and has done it repeatedly not only against Massa.
The comment on here that everyone including the commentators agreed it was massa's fault is convenient for some fiction. The BBC guys could not believe it. they were sure that Hambone is getting a drive through and were hoping that they would let it slide as a racing accident.

 

As usual you have no clue about what your speaking about.

 

except that he's exactly right.

 

+1

 

Many people are talking about Vettel now, which is understandable, but I really think Jenson is doing well too.

 

Hamilton was right beside him before the curve, and he had the inside. Massa was an idiot for either not seeing him, or running over him. He didn't need mirrors to see him. No doubt about who was at fault.

Are you sure he lead EVERY SINGLE lap AND had the fastest lap? The last time that was supposedly done was 19 years ago. Remember it was A LOT harder back in the refueling days, with more pit stops. But if you have evidence on the contrary, go yell at SpeedTV .

 

I just watched the in-car video (cockpit cam?) from Hamilton's car once again ... at NO POINT in time did Hamilton have the lead in front of Massa. So, we can absolutely rule-out my second 'scenario' below. I still can't say for sure that Massa had the racing line, but there sure seemed to be an apex on the left, that Massa was turning towards ... all the while keeping the lead on Hamilton.

Yep ... i'm finding no reason to disagree with the BBC commentators.

EDIT : fwiw, the only argument i'd entertain at this point is that Massa left the racing line, and tried to apex "early" to block Hamilton. That would violate one of the conditions of my first scenario above. But none of the Hamilton defenders have offered that one yet (as far as i know)

 

I don't think that's necessarily correct. Hamilton's car was uncompetitive to Vettel, and that's why he started over-pressing. The biggest difference between he and Button is that Button is experienced enough to take what is available, while Hamilton wants it all regardless of his realistic chances of winning. At 25, remember that Button was called a 'flake' and 'womanizer' who 'didn't take formula 1 serious enough to be a great driver'.

If Hamilton has a car that can compete with the guy at the front of the grid, I don't think we see the same issues. If not, he can't afford to have a repeat of this season. I think he did shore up a lot of the kamikaze behavior as his incidents started to pile up. The stuff with Massa is serial, so I see that as more of a personal issue between them.

 

On the other hand, I think LH should continue to pursue drivers and make passes up the grid. Almost all of his problems have been with 2 drivers (save his maniacal behavior at Monaco and his brush up with Button in Canada). Like Schu with guys like Montoya and Coulthard, LH needs to learn to deal with Massa and Schu when he's behind them.

 

What was your verdict on their Singapore collision?

 

+1...that was a fairly incoherent breakdown of the incident. I thought that Hamilton was patient enough not to take the position earlier and set it up properly. I fully expected Massa to let it happen and officially kill their long-running beef. I was shocked when Felipe turned in on him.

I'd love to hear some of the same people break down the Singapore collision....

 

Really? I thought it made sense. Oh well. Regardless, he was spot on about the BBC guys. They sounded quite startled that Massa got the penalty.

 

I don't think that Hamilton was using Massa for anything more than a DRS drag. I have seen him make that other move earlier this season (using another car as a 'curb' to help keep his car on track), but in this instance he set everything up properly, used DRS effectively, lined up for the pass and Felipe purposely turned in to block him.

Think about that duel between Webber and Alonso at Spa...those guys were both on the edge but had enough respect for each other to duel fairly. In the end, Alonso conceded the spot once Webber properly set up for the pass. That's what Massa should have done in this instance...you simply can't close the door to prevent a pass. The Felipe/Lewis thing is pretty old. These guys need to get on with racing and beat the crap out of each other in a fight club or something.

About the BBC guys, the Speed guys were of the complete opposite opinion. They felt FM improperly shut the door on LH.

I guess even broadcasting is an inexact science...

 

I guess it is. I couldn't tell either way from the footage I've seen.

 

The stewards may or may not have apportioned blame correctly yesterday. But more importantly the coming together has to be seen as, and dealt with, a larger context.
It was almost inevitable that those two would once again tangle physically. Who would hit whom was the only unknown. To be honest it could have gone the other way just as easily had positions been reversed.
The important question is if it's appropriate to let two drivers bring a feud on to the track and to use their cars as weapons.
It may well be that the powers that be feel there is little chance of harm being done and the spat improves the show. if so its another step down to NASCAR style pandering that is, in my opinion, ruining f1

 

Singapore was Hamilton's fault, India was Massa's fault.

 

I don't think that's the case at all. They are limited in what they can do by the scope of the regulations, and I'm of the opinion that they don't want more rules defining on track behavior any more than anyone else does, so they rightfully limit themselves to apportioning blame as each incident arises in regards to the regulations already in place.

I'm sure there are off track discussions taking place, but those will only be as effective as the team bosses allow them to be....beyond that, they return to square one vis-à-vis on track behavior.

Further, with regards to assigning liability in personal injury and death cases in Europe, I'm sure there are really no personnel willing expose their asses for the sake of sport.

Well, excluding Max Mosley, of course.

 

Didn't see the race but watched a replay of the crash. At no point as we all know by now was Hamilton ahead, nor on the racing line (well, until he wanted to merge with Massa's Ferrari). I, like many others can't believe Massa got a penalty...For any doubters here's a video!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV35wj2iQKM[/ame]

It is what you say...name a driver and Hamilton has likely crashed into them. But carry on Lewis, you might have raw speed but that's not all. Like someone else said, more than just speed is needed to win championships. Judgement, for starters. His career is imploding quickly it seems. Go Button .

 

Hi mike,

Should have known you'd go for me, as usual. Yes, I have raced, cars and bikes, and know enough to get by thank you very much.

Get yourself a hd tv my friend. If ham was on the racing line, then why was there a sandstorm kicked up by him. If he had right of way, why did he admit on BBC after the race that he tried to back out, he is too arrogant to do so if he was right. Massa was entitled to turn in tothe corner, and ham, if he wanted to pass, needed to make sure he wasn't in the way

 

I currently race in F1 as the substitute driver for the top 7 teams. It's a little known fact that the best drivers get one sick race per season. It's a race weekend they can call in sick to go play X-Box or get dumped by singer hotties or have teas at the polar ice caps in their private jets or whatever.

At any rate, I'm a substitute driver. I'm the guy you think is a pissed off Driver_Name_N running from his broken car to the pits with his helmet on.

I keep the helmet on by necessity, but it doubles as a clever ruse designed to befuddle the unwary. And it works. I mean, how many times have you personally questioned that it was Massa running from his wrecked car, or Hamilton or Schumi in the first half of his season?

Not one of you. Therefore, the clever ruse remains intact.

Also, tacit in this implication is the plausible deniability factor which, by its very nature, excludes any intellectual investigation of this matter as fact.

So yeah. Neener and all that.

 

In 2002 and 2004 MS and his bright red Ferrari were so dominant that he was able to pull gaps large enough to pit, take on fuel, get out of the car and have a cut of tea, have a shower, do a couple of TV interviews and get back into his car at his leasure and still come out leading.

But here is proof:

And he obviously won as he lead from pole the entire race .
Pete

 

Well done!