2011 FORMULA 1 AIRTEL GRAND PRIX OF INDIA: RACE *** Spoilers ***

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Pete

 

I am at a loss for words.

 

I mean well done in finding that info. What an amazing record.

 

Very well said. I can´t believe this is even a discussion. This is pretty much all fundamental racing stuff. People who believe Massa is at fault obviously don´t understand. Downright scary that the stewards are those people. This was an incident typical of GP2 clumsyness.

 

Maybe but it seems that when it suits their purposes nonexistent rules can be brought to bear on much more imaginary issues. If the FIA wanted to act they would.

Is there any doubt that something is going on between these two?
Race after race we argue who bears the greater responsibility for a coming together. What isn't asked as often is if the crash wasn't easily avoidable by either driver?
By now it's obvious that these guys are looking to knock on another off.
Is there a place in F1 for this?

BTW congrats on the F1 career.

 

It's interesting to note that those who don't apportion the blame to Massa say that anyone who disagrees with them doesn't understand fundamental racing. From the sounds of things, that group of people are in the minority, and are at odds with the BBC Commentators who were former F1 drivers, and the stewards who are former racing drivers.

We have seen in races earlier this year like Monza where Schumacher was warned by Ross Brawn (after consultation with the stewards) to give room to cars attempting to overtake on the inside of corners and many people said he was behaving recklessly when he wasn't giving this room. Hamilton, at one moment, had his car almost completely alongside Massa, but Massa marginally out-braked him having a more ideal line for the corner but still didn't get completely ahead. In a similar situation, with far less of an overlap of the cars than here, Hamilton was massively berated for turning in on Mark Webber earlier in the year.

The fact remains however that Hamilton had the inside line and nowhere to go but into Massa when the door was so vehemently shut. Massa cannot (or shouldn't) be able to do the same thing without the same accusations of reckless driving - and in this case he caused an avoidable collision. There was plenty of precedent so that Massa should have known this action was punishable and I don't buy the line that Massa just didn't see him as he checked his mirrors multiple times before turning in.

You might say GP2 clumsiness or racing incident; I am far more inclined to agree with the stewards in that Massa overstepped the line of what is considered legal in competitive F1 driving.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

Hamilton only had the inside line because he was completely off the line, hence the cloud of dust kicking up. He wasn't ahead of Massa, therefore he should have lifted off/braked, as he said so himself after the race (therefore partly accepting the blame at least). He was too late doing that resulting into him crashing into massa. Had Massa gone offline he'd not only given away the place but also ran on the dirt, losing even more ground.

BBC commentators where astonished that Massa got the penalty, as you say, former F1 drivers/winners.

 

Bas, I have to disagree there, they were cautiously commenting on it live, but in the post-race analysis they kept examining it and agreed that it was in fact Massa's fault and that the penalty was deservedly applied.

As to all this business about the line... Hamilton was still on the track, so he was perfectly allowed to take the inside of corner. To heck with dust - why is that bit of tarmac there within the lines denoting the confines of the track if it is not meant to be used by anyone? It wasn't like he was out of control and sliding into the side of Massa, he got far enough up that it wasn't a marginal thing with a wing slicing a tyre, he properly got his car alongside. Massa was driving as if he was the only one on the track. I also didn't take the same meaning from his post-race comments, which I saw as polite public-relations stuff to make him seem perfectly reasonable vs. Massa's tirade for the cameras.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

So you share some empathy with Mr Massa, that figures.

You refer to the time Massa wanted to spout off at Hamilton, when he was being interviewed, well I can tell you if that was me in Hamiltons position, my fist would be buried in his whining rat face, so full marks to Hamilton for blanking him.

So Hamilton holds out the olive branch to him, before the race, Hamilton said that he had stood next to the Brazilian on the grid at the minute’s silence and put his arm around him, and said “Have a good race”...but oh know that's not good enough for Massa his hate runs deep, in fact back to 08, when Massa's 1st and last chance to become a WDC ended, thanks to Hamilton.

So who do you think would hold the grudge, its not Hamiltons fault Massa has to play 2nd fiddle to Alonso is it, it's not Hamiltons fault that Massa has Smedley bleeting down his ear, to destroy!! Hamiltons race is it...do you not think Hamilton knows about these facts.

The fact remains Hamilton is in another league as a driver as far as skill goes, he wants to win races, he does not want to crash other drivers out, or be crashed. What is Massa's motive, besides destroying someone that got his title.

Massa is the driver constantly complaining about Hamilton, in fact so much so he has got other drivers to do his dirty work for him, Vettel Alonso Button must be secretly rubbing thier hands.

My guess is Hamilton is trying to build bridges, he knows he has the skill to win another WDC, and anyone with half a brain knows that, but he has to do that with a even playing field, not with the likes of Massa trying to run him off the track.

Hamilton actually qualified behind Vettel, and my guess is, if he hadn't got his penalty he would not have had any problems.

It speaks for itself, coffee you smell it yourself, hahah also a double snub thats bollox, if you want to listen to some whining rat spout off in your face good luck with, that I wouldn't, in fact the guy is that messed up he butted in a interview, he has lost the plot.

 

I think Hamilton set up properly for the pass. If you're going to pass going into the left hand corner, that's where it's done 95% of the time. You generally don't see many passes from the outside (though it happens). It did seem that Hamilton backed out of the pass early but Massa still came across to vehemently shut the door. Notice that he braked much earlier than Felipe (had he maintained speed and braked at the same time as Felipe, it probably would have been better for both). I've seen much more aggressive manoeuvres by a trailing driver not result in a wreck. As noted earlier, Speed commentators felt Massa caused the crash by shutting the door.

A collision is never totally one driver's fault and not the other. If there were no passing in F1, then there would be no collisions. The issue with Hamilton/Massa though is that clearly FM will not allow Hamilton to pass and Hamilton will not remain stuck behind Massa.

 

As I know both you guys are not fans of Hamilton, it is really heartening to read these comments.

 

Easier to say who he has tangled with this season:

Massa (Monaco, Singapore, Suzuka, India)
Button (Canada)
Maldonado (Monaco)
Hit by Kobi (Spa)
Webber (spun in Canada)
Hit by Alonso (Malaysia)

 

Good day, guys. Not a good way to continue the arguement, but Rowan Atkinson expression was priceless. I wonder what made India GP so special, he was there. Ha! Love that man.

 

He was in India anyway promoting Mr Bean and also his latest Johnny English film.

Plus, he's a definite petrolhead.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

Seemed to me that neither was blameless in this case. Massa did leave to door open and while he did marginally outbrake LH, he did try to shut the door too hard. Had LH's front wheel been behind Massa's left rear (which it was not) LH could have backed out.

That said, it was a pass location that was just not going to come off and poorly selected by Hamilton, especially knowing who was in front of him. Not really the decision process of a winning driver. If PM had left him room, it seems likely that he would have gotten hip checked off at the track out point/entrance to T6, as I doubt LH would have been able to leave racing room at exit (speculation, of course).

I have made the same mistake myself, diving up the inside and been too far in to back out. Contact was made and the other driver was off into the tires. I did not feel good about what happened, did not feel the corner was mine, and apologized for the move. The other alternative is to pinch the car in to avoid contact and spin.

I would call it a racing incident with both drivers playing a roll. Realistically it scuppered the race for Hamilton with him needing a new nose, so PM got the penalty. Had they not penalized either, LH would have felt hard done, having served his penalties for prior incidents.

 

I think Massa getting the penalty was BS. Notice that Lewis wasn't ahead of him, but rather slightly behind him, and with no where to go (he could have braked) he just tried to use Massa as a guardrail.

Look how it should be done here...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr4dN80TzGM[/ame]

look how close they were, but also notice MS was a tad..just a tad ahead of Kimster.

 

+1

Very well put, and I suspect you're probably about right.

However, is it fair to anyone involved if past infractions influence current decisions? Just because Lewis has been penalized previously, it's now Phil's "turn" to get the drive thru? Despite claims to the contrary, this isn't Nascar after all.

Cheers,
Ian

 

The press isnt being too hard on either driver. That being said they both need to get their heads into the game and move on, race and stop hitting each other. Its comical and sad now.

 

"That said, it was a pass location that was just not going to come off and poorly selected by Hamilton, especially knowing who was in front of him. Not really the decision process of a winning driver." - Ney

Nicely sums up what LH is not doing with his decision process. JB is. In terms of talent he is lacking here vs JB. No doubt who the team leader is even if he, JB, lacks the raw speed of LH.

 

"Fair"....? Formula 1 has never really been fair or balanced in their decision making process, have they? I think we can all point to inconsistancies in their meteing out justice. I think in this care with LH having to pit for a new nose and dropping 3 positions and PM not having to, they felt the need to balance the situation. It all became moot as PM pounded the corner off of the car on lap 32.

 

Nice example of good racing with the line. If you come up the inside you need to be a wheel ahead to make it work.

 

Hey!
Not NASCAR yet you mean

No offense to my friends on this thread who argue about who gets the blame this week but you're missing the larger issue. We've got two drivers using f1 races to settle a grudge and the FIA is either fine with it or powerless to deal with it.

 

....and done without contact, KERS, DRS, or punting the outside car off at exit.

I would not be surprised that if there is contact in Abu Dhabi, FIA sits them both for Brazil. This would be quite a blow to PM as it is his home race.

 

Contact in open wheel cars, when passing, only works when you touch each others wheels...otherwise know as a touché. If you get it wrong (how it goes with many of Hamilton's overtakes) it's known as a crash. Once again it went wrong...

Remember back up until ~2006...we saw plenty of touchés without incidents .

Shame it can't be like that anymore.

I do agree a little with some of the above statements, it's not 100% Hamiltons fault, but the fact remains, he was never quite ahead and should have braked earlier than he did.

 

Don't forget Silverstone...again with Massa.

Exactly! The master at work!