Collisions at apex: when must a leader surrender?

The leader doesn't have to "surrender" the corner, ie yield to the overtaking car as if he were being lapped - but he DOES have to "leave room".

It's the new Schumacher rule, following his overly aggressive defending against Hamilton at Monza where he ran him off the road a few times. Charlie issued a formal clarification, saying the leading car has to leave room for the challenging car.

Massa doesn't just do it to Hamilton, he's done it to Button and Webber this year as well. He'll happily choose to collide rather than share the track with a car looking to overtake.

If you want to phrase it in terms of etiquette, then this is actually a return to classic racing etiquette. In the 60s or 70s, there's no way a driver would deliberately turn in on another and cause a crash - he would leave enough track space (but no more than just enough) for the challenger.

 

We raced karts under the "2/3rds Rule.....I forget exactly how it goes, but basically if he has an inside run and is past 'halfway" up your flank overtaking (he/she has you on speed at that point), you are NOT allowed to turn in on him to close the door.

Led to a lot of fights and hurt feelings but truthfully IF he was overcooking into the proper line at the apex, they would end up far off the racing line exiting the corner and repassing under acceration was easy.

 

If you get your front wheels to the leading drivers cockpit (essentially front wheel halfway up the leading car) you can claim the corner. Anything less then that and you can expect a chop and need to be ready to back out of the maneuver. Getting your front wheel to the leading drivers rear wheel is not enough to make a claim or a pass. The reason to get inside far enough is that you can then control when the driver on the outside can turn in. My .02.

 

+1 spot on in my book.

As Andreas pointed out in another thread, from karting rules, black flags are issued regularly for ignoring this type of rule of basic etiquette, not closing doors or intentionally tapping or shunting.

Besides the fact no doubt they want to keep the repair bills down.

And as most F1 drivers worth there salt cut there teeth in karts, one would expect they took that mind set with them.

 

It means you have to be VERY precise in your own choice of line approaching the apex yourself. You have to be a MAX speed without sliding, otherwise you 'make enough room" for them to nose in...all things being equal, and our karts were pretty well matched performance wise...

 

You have to race 'clean' to hope for victory, tangling with another car lets the WHOLE FIELD thru......better to pick a spot on a longer straight if you feel you have the speed in hand to do so....

 

Agreed, I learnt the hard way paid the price, but then it clicked and started to win a good few tournaments.

The only thing I never mastered was cleverly tapping the back end of a kart in front of me to make them spin without getting caught... I had it done to me a good few times and boy it makes you mad..

 

Why should there be a rule of how far a driver should be beside you before "chopping him off"? Tecnically if another car gets his front wing beside you, you've got two choices: Turn left over his wing, or leave him just enough room on the inside to try and pass. When we play online and I see a driver on the inside (remember this is online where I don't have anything to really lose from cutting him off) I let him have the line, but I make sure I squeeze him. This insures a clean(er) race and no ill competitors in the lobby afterwards.

 

From the link posted in the original post:

--The build-up came on the previous lap when, under pressure from Hamilton, Massa got out of shape at the exit of Turn Three, the slow corner onto the very long straight, making him vulnerable to the McLaren into Turn Four at the end of that straight.

Hamilton deployed his DRS overtaking aid wing and all of his Kers power-boost yet still could not quite make the move work, despite getting alongside the Ferrari at both Turns Four and Five.

Massa's Ferrari was running much lower downforce than team-mate Fernando Alonso's and was very quick down the straight, having clocked 199.7mph through the speed trap there in qualifying compared to 196.4mph for Hamilton (and 197.1mph for Alonso).

Hamilton had just found out that, with Massa using his own Kers to defend, not even the help of DRS gave enough of an advantage down that straight to allow him to pass.

So for the next lap, as Hamilton was again within the required one second of the Ferrari at the DRS trigger point, he had a plan to try something different.

He would use his DRS of course, but not all of his Kers, knowing that Massa would likely deploy all of his on that straight, thereby leaving the Ferrari driver without his power-boost on the short sprint between Turns Four and Five.

That is how the McLaren accelerated so much faster out of Four and moved alongside the Ferrari down that short straight.
Lewis Hamilton and Felipe Massa collide during the Indian Grand Prix Hamilton's front wheel touched Massa's rear in their crash in India

But then Hamilton ran out of Kers, too, so the McLaren was no longer accelerating faster, deprived of the extra 80bhp.

At this point, realising Hamilton now had the inside line, Massa switched to the conventional racing line on the outside and braked as late as he judged possible - which on the clean and geometrically correct line was much later than Hamilton could brake on the dusty inside line.

Hence the McLaren was no longer fully alongside the Ferrari, but only partly so (Hamilton's right-front connected with Massa's left-rear as the Ferrari turned in).

It was the fact that Hamilton was no longer fully alongside that Massa felt justified in turning in.

What the stewards saw was a car coming down the inside faster, with the guy on the outside then moving further right, thereby apparently surrendering the corner - only to then turn in.

"They told me they penalised me because when I had moved to the outside, I was giving him the corner, then I changed my mind," said Massa.

"But it wasn't like this. I went to the outside so I could brake late because I knew that's where the grip was. I was not surrendering the corner - and Lewis was no longer alongside me. That's why I turned in."

Massa has a point. The McLaren was initially coming down the inside faster - but only because of Kers.

By the crucial time just before the braking zone, the two cars were travelling at much the same speed. Knowing he was going to be able to brake later, why should Massa have been surrendering the corner? It makes perfect sense that he was still fighting it.

It then comes down to the racing etiquette of when a car is far enough alongside you to have won the corner.

The unwritten rule used to be that if the guy was not in your peripheral vision by the turn-in point, you were perfectly entitled to treat him as if was not there - and that it was his business to yield as you then turned in.

Of course Massa knew Hamilton was there - he had been fully alongside him just a second or so earlier. But that does not necessarily mean that, with Hamilton no longer fully alongside, Massa was not entitled to claim the corner.

There is then a distinction between that and turning in knowing you were likely to collide.

If penalties are to be handed out then, yes, it was Massa who made the final move that made the collision inevitable - and, if that is the criteria, then fine.

But if that is the criteria, then the etiquette has changed over the years.

In the days before stewards could impose stop-go or drive-through penalties, a driver in Hamilton's position would have been perfectly entitled to have tried that move.

But he would then have no cause for complaint if Massa had effectively said: "No, you're not going to intimidate me out of the way with a half-move, one you haven't made stick by getting fully alongside. I'm going to turn in and you'd better get out the way. I'd rather have the accident than have you bully me out of the way in a move you haven't made work."

Under those terms, it would be OK for Hamilton to try it on, OK for Massa to refuse and the resultant accident would be just a racing incident, just what happens sometimes in the game.

Hamilton admitted afterwards that, as he realised Massa was not surrendering the turn, he tried to get out of the move. But it was too late. ----

So where is it written you have to leave 'room'. These 2 gents were just racing. LH hits Massa's rear wheel to boot. Racing incident.

 

When must a leader or attempted passer surrender? That question is the art that makes a good racer.

Martin explains it best at 6:07

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNmqn3heGgE[/ame]

 

I do race in SCCA so that's my backround. There are so many variables and there is always controversy even in the amateurs. Even who has more to win or loose comes into play. The bottom line is there are loose guidelines and a racer goes for whatever he thinks he can get away with. It is always about managing risk. Part of the strategy is knowing who you are racing with and how that player will deal with your pressure.

 

Wow...as a competitor, Senna was a prick!! Amazing.

 

I prefer the term ruthless

 

Imagine you are in a go cart (no mirrors) trying to overtake.
You have to make sure the driver in front sees you on the inside before turning in.

 

Yeah...everyone postumously says how great he is but he was a hazard on track. During the Senna Doc Jackie Steward grills senna on his antics. Jackie was right.

 

If you remember Franco's first a rule of Italian driving... 'what is a behind a me is a not important'
If you charge on the inside to a corner and don't get wheel to wheel before the turn, you should stay behind. Don't centerpunch the guy in front of you while he's in the turn already.

 

They hit us and broke the exhaust pipe off once, burned the valves out in two laps....rough crowd.