Collisions at apex: when must a leader surrender?

As a club racer, if the cars are anywhere past 1/3 overlapped, I leave room to go THROUGH THE ENTIRE CORNER 2 WIDE. That means the inside guy on turn in better slow enough to pinch the exit so the other guy can stay on track if the outside guy leaves room at the apex. Only fair IMO.

The rules are apparently different in pro racing, but I have to say that I am completely unimpressed by the racer who gets inside at the apex and then tracks out his opponent into the dirt (or wall) on the exit of the corner. No sport or skill in that and I see this all the time with no comment at all in the pro ranks.

So no wonder the guy on the outside heads for the apex when in doubt, as leaving room at turn in is almost never reciprocated at track out.

 

Ironic that you bring up this incident, as it is similar to what has recently happened with Hamilton and Massa.

Senna went for a gap that was sure to close which it did, was not wheel to wheel, (and never had been) and his left front hit Prost in the right rear with both going off. Senna was pilloried, mostly because many felt that it was an intentional act rather than an error in judgement. On that day, Senna had nothing to lose and everything to gain with the maneuver and I am sure felt justified in has actions after the incident the prior year with Prost crying to JMB about Senna continuing and due to having the pole, but starting on the dirty line (JMB call again).

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvSgJDIsRnc[/ame]

Hamilton went for a gap that was sure to close which it did, was not wheel to wheel, (and never had been) and his right front hit Massa in the right rear with both going off. In this case Massa has been penalized, because many feel that it was an intentional act due to their prior altercations. In reality, in both of these incidents, the car to the inside bears the responsibility to abort the maneuver before contact. Both leaders could have left more room, but are not obligated to do so. I still would call it a racing incident.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXR5tjODIM[/ame]

 

Yes!

 

I can't work out who is at fault here..

In fact the last picture with Seb leaving the pit lane hugging the kerb no where to go, Massa overtakes on the outside and hits Seb, Seb gets the penalty, go figure that one.

Racing rules, need considerate drivers to work, otherwise don't overtake.
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IMO, front tires overlapping leaders rears before turn in and leader has to leave a car width at the apex (no more, no less). If you don't have your tires next to the guy in front before turn-in, you're punting. If you can get your tires next to him by the end of brake zone, you have a right to challenge through the turn. However, if the leader leaves you a car width and you go into him because you went in too hot, it's completely your fault. There should be no surrendering of position, you just have to leave room and the passing driver had to be able to get by you by not using more than a car width.

 

So everybody finally agrees with me......Schumacher v Hill...it was Hill's dumb fault!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lZWiZl2bGI[/ame]

 

I still don't understand. If I've got the inside line, why should I move move out of the way to prevent someone else from running into me? Clearly Massa ran into Hamilton, all this talk about owning a racing line is garbage. If Massa didn't want Hamilton to pull up beside him on the inside, he should have protected the inside line. Instead he wasn't expecting Hamilton to be that fast out of the last corner and thought he was safe. All of a sudden (on the straight) massa looks over and finds Hamiltons car. Instead of taking a higher line in the next corner he runs into Hamilton.

 

When you watch it in slow motion it looks such an easy call. But the reality is it all happened so fast. Interesting interviews after. Even Damon says he should have waited. I suppose there was no penalty?

 

If the leader has allowed a competitor to get along side of him then he's already lost the line. I realize what a racing line is, but the first thing you learn when you go racing is how to drive off the line. I'm not saying Massa should have given him the corner, but he should have left him room.

Ah you're right, i forgot this thread wasn't about massa/hamilton. I'm sorry.

If the leader has someone beside him, if he takes the higher line (not back out of the corner) he's normally set up to capitalize on the next bend. Which often times turns back the other way (giving him the inside line).

 

It doesn't 'transfer,' when there is overlap of the wheels it becomes both drivers responsibility to leave room for the other. The guy in front needs to leave one car width, no more and no less.

 

I understand racing lines, but you've got to be able to drive off the racing line. If you haven't learned that you really should hang it up.

Also I'm assuming the smiley at the end of the post means you're trying to signify that his isn't a "heated" discussion. To comply with these rules I will agree by placing a smiley.
lol

 

Question 1:

If the leader turns and hits a car it's his fault. When I drive my car (not a racecar) I know where my front and back bumpers end. I also know where my where my left and right edge of my tires are. I've driven the car long enough to know these things and can prove it when I take it to a race track and hit the apex. A formula 1 driver know's these things aswell even though he can't see his front wing he still knows where to stop. If they didn't they'd fly through the 1st place, 2nd place, and 3rd place pit signs at the end of the grand prix.

Okay question two. Why isn't it the followers job to avoid the collision?

It's the followers job to avoid the collision exiting the corner. When you take away the "racing line". I don't even like calling it that, lets call it the "preferred line" because that's what it is. Anyway, when you take away the "preferred line" and find yourself on the inside of a corner entry you've got to slow down enough to be able to exit the corner and leave your competitor room, because he's probably still going to be on the outside line and you can't (shouldn't) run him off the track.

edit: oops I forgot my smiley

 

In the end, it doesn't matter where the line is drawn as long as everyone knows where it is. I'm of the opinion that if someone behind you is fast enough to get their front wheels alongside your rear wheels before turn in, they've established a credible challenge and should be left room. This does NOT mean that they get the racing line. Both drivers get a compromised line and at that point it comes down to who can get through the turn faster with both getting the same amount of track and roughly the same compromised line. The passing driver still has to leave a car width on the exit if the other car is still there, so they do not get an ideal entry or exit, just the apex.

The peripheral vision argument makes sense if you dont have mirrors, but once you get past karts, that is no longer an excuse.

I have seen rules that go both ways, the wheel overlap leads to cleaner and more exciting racing as people leave room through the corner and people dont get spun, pushed off the track or their nose cut off unless somebody truly messes up mid corner.

 

There is very little periferal vision. In a tin top car we run full containment seats and HANS with helmets. You can't see squat. Most of us use tricks like the wink or wide angle distortion mirrors. F1 probably is not that much better driver low in cockpit and the eyes look to be just barely over the head containment zone plus the eyeports on their helmets are very small and got smaller with the new FIA helmets since Massa's spring hit in the helmet from a couple years ago.

 

Talk about over-analyzing! (obligatory friendly smiley).


I am not a pro racer but I've done quite a lot of track miles and raced competitively wheel-to-wheel (which IMO is a lot different than track days).

Coming up with a set of rules that define who is at fault in such situations is impossible. It will always be a judgement call. It's a combination of aggression, track position, relative speed, balls, talent, necessity and many other factors.

If you come up on someone who you know is a bit of a wuss, you're going to run him hard and aggressive and force the issue. If you have to make pass this lap or lose the race, you're going to be a lot more aggressive than you would be on lap #2.

But one thing that I find to be universal is that there is no (and nor can there be) any predefined rules like "if you are not at least X far on the leading car, you have to back off or it will be your fault if he closes the door and clips you".

So given that, I am not sure what the point of the exercise of discussing it ad nauseum is.

But anyway... I think the answer is that it's too fluid a situation to create a set of rules about it, and each situation must be judged on it's own merits.

 

The real problem is that this isn't chess, where you can define an absolute set of rules that applies in every situation, and an absolute path around the track - which you seem to want to happen here.

Further - the "racing line" is not absolute and constant, and it's especially NOT some bonus earned and therefore privileged. Look back to Hamilton defending against Webber in Korea. Was Hamilton driving the classic "racing line" that you think he earned and deserved by being in front? Absolutely not, or Webber would have been past him on the first lap he tried it. Hamilton could have tried this fuzzy argument like Massa did, but all it would have meant was that Hamilton either got passed or crashed with Webber, just like Massa did in India. If a driver in the lead car of a battle for position doesn't have enough pace to drive away from the challenger, then you can guarantee that he will be modifying his line to make it more difficult for the challenger to pass, and that that modified line will NOT be your classic "racing line". Was Schumacher driving the one true "racing line" in Monza when Hamilton was behind him? Absolutely not.

Yes, on his own like in qualifying, a driver will certainly drive the fastest line around the track. When battling for position, the fastest line is not necessarily the best line to take to avoid being passed. Massa was just whining with BS excuses, he knows this as well as anybody.

 

I was taught, and always practiced in my years of racing, that it's the responsibilty of the overtaking driver to make a safe pass, and that, unless he is well and truly alongside the car he is trying to overtake, he had better be prepared for the leading car to claim the racing line. (aka "closing the door")