0233 EU - 212 Inter Cabriolet Ghia - COMING SOON | Page 2 | FerrariChat

0233 EU - 212 Inter Cabriolet Ghia - COMING SOON

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Marcel Massini, Nov 15, 2011.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

Page 2 of 9
  1. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ Honorary

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    Messages:
    24,860
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Marcel Massini, Nov 17, 2011
    #26
  2. Harry-SZ

    Harry-SZ F1 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    4,522
    Location:
    Elst (U) Netherlands
    Wow cool!! This is going to be a great thread!
     
    Harry-SZ, Nov 17, 2011
    #27
  3. barchetta

    barchetta Formula Junior

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2003
    Messages:
    893
    Hi Marcel,

    Who was the lucky garage picker?

    Thank you,
    Jason
     
    barchetta, Nov 17, 2011
    #28
  4. michael platzer

    michael platzer F1 Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2003
    Messages:
    5,220
    Location:
    Austria
    Full Name:
    Michael Platzer
    great thread!
     
    michael platzer, Nov 18, 2011
    #29
  5. Tom Roland

    Tom Roland Formula Junior

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2006
    Messages:
    355
    Tom Roland, Nov 18, 2011
    #30
  6. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ Honorary

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    Messages:
    24,860
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Marcel Massini, Nov 18, 2011
    #31
  7. Tom Roland

    Tom Roland Formula Junior

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2006
    Messages:
    355
    Well done but, for all the reasons exposed earlier, can't be anything else than an over-stamping, 0191EL remaining at least on the PRA document (post #24)!
     
    Tom Roland, Nov 18, 2011
    #32
  8. Tom Roland

    Tom Roland Formula Junior

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2006
    Messages:
    355
    Hey Touringgarage, anything for sale?
     
    Tom Roland, Nov 18, 2011
    #33
  9. kare

    kare F1 Rookie Consultant

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2003
    Messages:
    3,840
    Engine number will tell the whole story. Best wishes, Kare
     
    kare, Nov 19, 2011
    #34
  10. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2006
    Messages:
    2,989
    Location:
    tewksbury
    Full Name:
    george burgess
    This is well covered in FML 0f 4/29/1995. The car went to the Turin show as a convertable and was probably later sold to Giannini Manocchi. His name does not appear on the ACI papers but he may have had the car officially owned by Editorial Domus...[?] For what ever reason the car went back to Ghia and the body removed [possibly damaged] and the coupe body installed and shown at the Paris show. In addition the steering was changed from RHD to LHD. The body we see today is an "exact" repro of the original created in a resto done from 1989-1994. Some where there is a 20 page booklet covering this resto.It would be great to see a copy of this.In any case this car was always 0191EL and never renumbered. just one man's opinion tongascrew
     
    tongascrew, Nov 19, 2011
    #35
  11. johnson

    johnson Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2005
    Messages:
    28
    Location:
    ChicagoSouth of I 80
    Full Name:
    Chris LaPorte
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    johnson, Nov 19, 2011
    #36
  12. kare

    kare F1 Rookie Consultant

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2003
    Messages:
    3,840
    What would have been the point of converting the steering as Ferrari was just chancing whole production from RHD into LHD? Do you have any idea how many Ferraris received new serial numbers in period of 1952-55. MANY!!! Renumbering cars was part of their shop practise back then and it is such a mess that it is best denied. I prefer trying to get into bottom of it all.

    Best wishes, Kare
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2011
    kare, Nov 19, 2011
    #37
  13. Tom Roland

    Tom Roland Formula Junior

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2006
    Messages:
    355
    Kare,
    There is no doubt anymore IMO that both 212 Ghia cabrios (0191>'0233' and 0205) were RHD so the switch from RHD to LHD is not relevant in this thread.
    You are right that what you call "renumbering" was frequent in these early times. But this is more fun to discover in my "historian" opinion than driving or styling considerations.
    By the way I would bet that engine numbers would not change that evidence. Provided they have been altered.
    Best
     
    Tom Roland, Nov 19, 2011
    #38
  14. Tom Roland

    Tom Roland Formula Junior

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2006
    Messages:
    355
    Sorry, please read: "provided they have NOT been altered".
     
    Tom Roland, Nov 19, 2011
    #39
  15. Boudewijn

    Boudewijn F1 Rookie Lifetime Rossa

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    4,133
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Boudewijn Berkhoff
    0191EL was stamped 0233 as well but 0233EL.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Boudewijn, Nov 19, 2011
    #40
  16. 4re Nut

    4re Nut F1 World Champ

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    16,343
    Location:
    N of NOLA
    Full Name:
    Steve
    :eek: Wow. :cool:
     
    4re Nut, Nov 19, 2011
    #41
  17. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2006
    Messages:
    2,989
    Location:
    tewksbury
    Full Name:
    george burgess
    All good questions and like so many may never be answered. In part I post this stuff to generate interest and comment. The FML article makes no mention of why these changes were made though there is reference made to "damage" to the original body and a concern for safety with convertables. One theory could be that the car with a coupe body and LHD would be more saleable or had been ordered by a buyer as such. In any case there is no mention of the chassis going back to SF to be converted to LHD or assigned a new s/n. One can only assume all the changes were made by Ghia. Let's see who else enters this conversation. just one man's opinion tongascrew
     
    tongascrew, Nov 20, 2011
    #42
  18. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ Honorary

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    Messages:
    24,860
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Marcel Massini, Nov 24, 2011
    #43
  19. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2006
    Messages:
    2,989
    Location:
    tewksbury
    Full Name:
    george burgess
    According to M.M. in post #31 this car has only one stamping which is 0233 and no evidance of any other. I believe that 0191EL was the only stamping this car had. juist one man's opinion tongascrew
     
    tongascrew, Nov 24, 2011
    #44
  20. Boudewijn

    Boudewijn F1 Rookie Lifetime Rossa

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    4,133
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Boudewijn Berkhoff
    I was only talking about the stamping of the Ghia Coupe, now 0191EL, which would be 0233EL, not about the Cabriolet 0233EU. No one so far has denied or confirmed this.
     
    Boudewijn, Nov 24, 2011
    #45
  21. Tom Roland

    Tom Roland Formula Junior

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2006
    Messages:
    355
    Do you mean that 0233EL and 0233EU would be 2 different cars? This never happened.
    What seems clear to me is that the stamping 0233E? on this cabrio (post #31) is a rough and wrond restamping. Necessarily 0191EL has disappeared in the process.
     
    Tom Roland, Nov 25, 2011
    #46
  22. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ Honorary

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    Messages:
    24,860
    Mr. Prunet:
    "Rough and wrong restamping?"

    There is ZERO evidence of any other number stamped on the frame. Also, NO Gilco frame numbers could be found on the bushings.
    COPYRIGHT MARCEL MASSINI
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Marcel Massini, Nov 25, 2011
    #47
  23. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ Honorary

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    Messages:
    24,860
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Marcel Massini, Nov 25, 2011
    #48
  24. Tom Roland

    Tom Roland Formula Junior

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2006
    Messages:
    355
    I do agree that no definitive conclusion can be pulled from these dies, fonts or whatever. That's why I rely on logics:

    1- The first LHD 212 being 0231, the "Peron" Ghia coupé is totally illogical as 0191.
    2- Both Ghia cabrios being RHD i.e. anterior, they can't be numbered above 0231. They are actually 0191 and 0205.
    3- The Peron car is 0233
    4- There has been a swap with overstamping or restamping between 0191 and 0233.
     
    Tom Roland, Nov 25, 2011
    #49
  25. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Veteran Consultant

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2004
    Messages:
    5,587
    Location:
    France
    Full Name:
    Cyril TESTE
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Aardy, Nov 25, 2011
    #50
Page 2 of 9

Share This Page