Cirrus parachute fails to stop fatal crash | FerrariChat

Cirrus parachute fails to stop fatal crash

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by toggie, Nov 27, 2011.

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  1. toggie

    toggie F1 World Champ
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    #1 toggie, Nov 27, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Not good. Don't know why the deployed shoot didn't slow the planes descent.
    The Cirrus ariframe looks like it completely shattered on impact.
    RIP to the 4 people on board.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2066691/Plane-Crash-near-Chicagos-Crystal-Lake-kills-businessman-Ray-Harris-2-daughters.html

    The businessman and two daughters who died in plane crash tragedy after parachute failed to slow craft down.

    A businessman and his two teenage daughters died in a plane crash yesterday afternoon after the parachute failed to slow the craft down.
    Ray Harris and girls Ramie and Shey perished, along with a man believed to be the co-pilot, after the single-engined Cirrus-SR2 plummeted into a farm field near the Chicago suburb of Crystal Lake.

    It shattered into several pieces, killing all on board instantly, while on its way from Marion, Indiana to Wheaton, Illinois, where Shey, the eldest, attended college.
    Mayor of Marion, Wayne Sebold, confirmed the identities of the victims as Mr Harris, a Chrystler dealership owner and former city water board president, and his daughters.

    Ronnie Carmin, treasurer of the Marion Pilots Club, which owned the plane, also said the 47-year-old businessman was scheduled to fly the plane yesterday.
    Mr Carmin said he was told that Mr Harris had fueled up the plane and taken off from Marion Municipal Airport around 10am Saturday.

    The cause of the crash, around half an hours later, was not immediately known.
    But witnesses said the four-seat model's parachute, which designed to lower the aircraft to safety after loss of control or engine failure, did not slow the craft down when it was deployed.

    It became caught around a tree and may have led to the plane breaking up, they suggested.
    The first people to the scene described the crash as 'horrific'.

    One witness described a white stream coming from the plane as it fell and a large cloud of dust after it crashed to the ground.
    'There was nothing anyone could do,' Darren Smith, one of the first people on the scene, told the Daily Herald.

    Smith heard an aircraft in trouble around 10.30 a.m. It broke through the clouds above his head and crashed in the soybean field.
    'I saw it a split second before it hit the ground,' he said. 'It was a horrific crash, pretty much nose first into the ground. The impact was tremendous.'

    His son, Cal Smith, was in another field when he heard the impact.
    'It kind of sounded like a gas pipe exploded,' Cal Smith told the Herald.

    When he ran to the crash site, he saw bodies lying on the field along with a plastic container with popcorn and papers from the airplane.
    'We tried to help, but there was no help that could be given,' Darren Smith said.

    Farmer Marvin Marquardt, who owns the property, said the pilot may have been deploying the parachute as the plane plummeted.
    The orange chute was found wrapped around an oak tree and may have contributed to the breakup of the aircraft, Marquardt suggested.

    Another witness to the crash, from The Lord and Savior Lutheran Church and School across the street, said the plane had 'disintegrated'.
    The Federal Aviation Administration is on the scene investigating whether rules of flight were followed, if the pilot was licensed and if the plane was properly maintained and registered, officials said.

    The plane crashed near Route 14 and North Ridgefield Road.
    It was flying by 'visual flight rules', which means looking out the window, so the pilot was not talking with air traffic control, Federal Aviation Administration spokeswoman Elizabeth Isham Cory said.

    The Marion Pilots Club Inc. in Marion, Indiana, is the registered owner of the plane, according to the Federal Aviation Administration registry.
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  2. Photog

    Photog Formula 3

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    That is so sad :( What does the chute do on a plane and how would one deploy it?
     
  3. toggie

    toggie F1 World Champ
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    This is how it is suppose to work (see video below).

    Most small planes DO NOT have a parachute system.
    Pilots either love or hate the idea of the one in the Cirrus.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAwET3Q9Og4[/ame]
     
  4. ylshih

    ylshih Shogun Assassin
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    Here's a vid with details of the BRS on the Cirrus. Interesting live vid of the incident itself.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on-SpWu4cgs[/ame]

    It's not common, except on Cirrus. There have also been some suggestions that the existence of the BRS encourages riskier pilot decision making, much like has been suggested regarding riskier driving behavior with airbags in cars.

    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1994-12-27/news/9412260273_1_drivers-hoffer-steven-peterson
     
  5. GuyIncognito

    GuyIncognito Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    once you deploy the parachute, how much control over the aircraft do you retain? i.e. are you a passenger once the chute is open? or can you influence where the plane is headed with the stick/rudder?
     
  6. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    #6 2NA, Nov 27, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2011
    The parachute must have "streamered" or was deployed too low to inflate. The crash site looks like flat ground. I wonder what happened that some sort of landing including "dead stick" wasn't attempted.
     
  7. Simon^2

    Simon^2 F1 World Champ

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    exactly. I'd rather glide slope in than risk a chute deploy if gliding is an option...
     
  8. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    The parachute is an integral part of the fuselage and intended to be a breakaway, one-shot deal. Once deployed, the airframe is damaged. Not sure what the repair might cost or if it's even feasible.
     
  9. MYMC

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    There are speed and weight restrictions on the chute. I have not read the details (don't have time at the moment) but there have been chutes shredded and fatalities in the Cirrus after deployment because the flight parameters were beyond its physical capabilities/limitations.

    Sad, sad, sad...

    I have over a 1000 hrs in the Cirrus in every iteration, but have never considered the chute an option in any failure I've faced. Probably more to do with "i'm a good pilot I'll fly us out of this" than anything I've read or seen about the chute. The reality is that I trust me a lot more than I do Cirrus.
     
  10. Photog

    Photog Formula 3

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    Great idea when it works. I have never heard of that. Sorry to side track the thread, was just curious on that whole system and how it worked.
     
  11. drjohngober

    drjohngober Formula 3

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    Last month in Dallas ( near Addison airport) another SR-22 crashed killing 2. Chute was deployed. Things that make you go huhm...
     
  12. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

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    Yesterday on the local news they said the aircraft was flying "visually" and that it wasn't in contact with ATC. Sounds like he was on a VFR flight plan. The conditions at the time were anything but VFR when the witnesses say they saw it come out of the clouds...

    Not sure if the chute is works if you are spinning at a high rate or if you are upside down...

    There are probably thousands of tombstones with "continued VFR into instrument conditions" on them. Just because you have a chute to get you out of trouble doesn't mean you should bet your life on it.
     
  13. Daryl

    Daryl Formula 3

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    #13 Daryl, Nov 27, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2011
    The crash site in Crystal Lake is just a few miles from my house, so we've had a lot of news coverage. The NTSB guys are saying it was a very high-velocity impact. The chute rocket must have launched just before impact. People driving by on the highway thought the wreckage was a hot-air balloon crash.
     
  14. Simon^2

    Simon^2 F1 World Champ

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  15. MYMC

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    Couple other points:

    There was a guy who actually restated the engine and "flew" the plane with the chute deployed... so yes the controls "work" but to what effect I have no idea, welcome to being a test pilot. The pilot pulled due to a heart attack and needed to move the aircraft since it was gonna land/crash on fuel dump or something like that...

    I do not know if the chute has been deployed upside down, but it has wrapped the tail before on deployment (causing an AD). Australia crash I believe.

    My guess would be that the "straight and level" button was instituted to make the chute a more viable option over a broader range of scenarios but I have no proof of that.
     
  16. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    I used to have an SR22. You need to be above 3000' to pull the chute and you need to be below 130 knots airspeed or theoretically it won't work.

    Like all things in aviation, there are lots of details in the cause of a crash. just because it has a chute doesn't mean you float to earth.

    Once you pull the chute, you have no control over the airplane as it is no longer and airplane. You land where you land.
     
  17. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    I'm gonna call b.s. on that story.
     
  18. toggie

    toggie F1 World Champ
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    Interesting history of CAPS deployments in Wikipedia.

    As of January 30 2011, the CAPS has been activated 30 times with 50 survivors and 4 fatalities.[8] Some additional deployments have been reported by accident investigators as caused by ground impact or post-impact fires, and some accidents are still under investigation.

    - October 2002, Texas, United States: detached aileron[9]

    - April 2004, British Columbia, Canada: loss of control in turbulence, 4 uninjured[10]

    - April 2004, Florida, United States: instrument failure in IFR conditions, 1 uninjured[11]

    - September 2004, California, United States: loss of control in high-altitude climb above clouds, 2 uninjured[12]

    - February 2005, California, United States: parachute deployed above design limits, pilot fatality (unknown if intentionally activated)[13]

    - June 2005, New York, United States: pilot incapacitated from undiagnosed brain tumor, 1 injured[14]

    - January 2006, Alabama, United States: loss of control after pilot flew into icing, 3 uninjured[15]

    - February 2006, South Dakota, United States: pilot reported disorientation, 2 uninjured[16]

    - August 2006, Indiana, United States: parachute deployed three miles from departure end of runway, aircraft landed in a retention pond, the parachute was deployed by a passenger, pilot fatality, 3 passengers injured[17]

    - September 2006, Jamaica: pilot activated parachute under unknown circumstances, 4 uninjured[18]

    - February 2007, New South Wales, Australia: Fuel line pressure sensor connection cap separated and loss of pressure stopped the engine. After an approach to a freeway forced landing, CAPS was activated, the rocket fired, but got tangled with the empennage resulting in parachute undeployment. 2 injured [19]

    - April 2007, New Mexico, United States: pilot experienced spatial disorientation following loss of the airspeed indicator. After the terrain warning went off, CAPS was activated and the plane came to rest in a forested area. 1 uninjured[20]

    - August 2007, Massachusetts, United States: pilot experienced spatial disorientation during approach, deployed parachute, which tangled with a LORAN tower and caused the aircraft to impact the ground. 2 seriously injured[21]

    - October 2008, San Sebastian, Spain: pilot reported severe turbulence and loss of control on approach, 3 uninjured[22]

    - November 2008, Turriaco, Italy: fuel exhaustion, activated parachute at low altitude, landed in trees. 1 injured, 3 uninjured[23]

    - December 2008, Gouvy, Belgium: pilot reported icing, requested lower altitude but lost control, activated parachute, landed in trees. 1 uninjured

    - December 2008, Louisiana, United States: pilot reported mechanical difficulties at night, activated parachute, landed in a canal. 1 uninjured

    - February 2009, Florida, United States: plane observed at low altitude, perhaps in a stall/spin attitude, parachute deployed. 2 fatalities[24]

    - March 2009, Maryland, United States: pilot reported mechanical difficulties, was losing altitude in IMC, activated the parachute and landed in a residential street. 1 uninjured[25]

    - June 2009, North Carolina, United States: pilot reported loud noise and vibrations with oil spewing onto windshield at 6,000 feet. Activated parachute and landed in a forest. 1 uninjured[26][27]

    - December 2009, Queensland, Australia: pilot reported loss of engine power during departure from Hamilton Island Airport and activated parachute over ocean. 1 injured.[28][29]

    - February 2010, Colorado, United States: Mid-air collision between a Cirrus SR20 with two aboard and a Piper PA-25 Pawnee with a single pilot aboard towing a Schweizer SGS 2-32 glider carrying three. The CAPS system deployed and the wreckage (shown on video involved in flames) floated to the ground. The pilot and passenger on board the Cirrus and the pilot of the Piper were all killed. The glider made a safe landing intact with all passengers uninjured. 3 fatalities.[30][31]

    - May 2010, Vest-Agder, Norway: A Cirrus SRV aircraft experienced unspecified problems in flight and the CAPS was deployed. 4 uninjured.[32]

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  19. CavalloRosso

    CavalloRosso Formula 3

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    You can pull the chute safely with good results at about 500 ft agl. 300 ft agl has been demonstrated with positive chute deployment.

    As stated above, this incident involved a VFR-only pilot flying into IMC conditions, perhaps even LIFR.

    I've been following this incident and others similar to it with great intent trying to learn as much as possible. Eye witnesses saw this plane crashing nose-first at great speed. The chute is sitting horizontally to the wreckage. Most likely this was either a post-impact chute deployment (the rocket often fires post impact) or else was a deployment at very low altitude.

    May the deceased rest in peace. However, this was not a problem with the plane or the BRS system. Unfortunately it looks like it was yet another example of bad decision-making which happens much too often in Cirruses and other advanced planes similar to them.
     
  20. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    Have you been through SR22 training? They don't train that the chute is an option At 500'. Does that mean I wouldn't pull it if I had exhausted all options? I'd pull it. But that's not how they train for it to be used.

    Another SR22 went down today in New Orleans. Chute deployed and landed in water. Engine failure.
     
  21. TheMayor

    TheMayor Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    #21 TheMayor, Nov 27, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2011
    I'm no pilot but I never got the chute thing.

    The only time I can see using it is if you either lose control of the aircraft or the engine stops and you just want to go down instead of trying to glide somewhere.

    Aren't these circumstances really rare? I would think that any other number of reasons would put a plane in distress to take a radical action.

    And, if you've lost control of the aircraft, it's probably going so wildly that the chute may malfunction.

    If you're at the point where you must hit the silk, why not just have chutes for everyone and just bail out? Yes, you may have no training but I think you could make an automatic deployment system easier than trying to make a chute system for an entire plane.

    It seems like your chances are much better to be away from the plane instead of coming down with it.

    Am I wrong?
     
  22. toggie

    toggie F1 World Champ
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    Agree with your points.

    I'd pull the chute (if I had one) only under a few extreme conditions:
    - airframe failure (e.g. wing or part of tail comes off)
    - icing severe enough to cause wing or tail stall
    - engine failure at night over mountainous terrain and too low to glide to nearest airport or straight road.
    - complete vertigo and disorientation with the plane in an unusual attitude I couldn't figure out how to recover from (the JFK, Jr. scenario).

    Otherwise, given that it seems 10% of the people die when they pull the chute, I'd rather take my chance on an emergency landing, even if my engine died in IMC.

    .
     
  23. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I'm not a big fan of the chute. Most of the situations where the chute would really help you, it won't work (major structural failure resulting in loss of control, for instance, or flight control failure).

    Generally, in order to use the chute the airplane needs to be under control, and if it's under control, you would probably be better off landing.

    However, I'm not a Cirrus guy, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.
     
  24. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    After several hundred hours in my SR22 I moved up. I never was into the chute either. The math doesn't add up.

    However, that chute has sold a lot of Cirrus airplanes. Wives love the chute.
     
  25. CavalloRosso

    CavalloRosso Formula 3

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    Yes, Jason. I have been through extensive SR22 training and the Cirrus-certified instructors do train that the CAPS system is active at 500' AGL. In fact, you tap on the parachute handle when the flaps go up to reinforce it per CSIP guidelines. In fact, I keep my SR22T not far from you at Papa Delta Kilo.

    .....and YES, the parachute is NOT a failsafe method of decent. Am I glad I have it onboard? You bet. Does my wife know the steps to activate the parachute in case I'm incapacitated? Absolutely. Would I rather do a power-off landing at an airport than pull the chute all things being equal? Undoubtedly.

    However, the chute works! It's been proven to work and it has saved lives. I think IMHO the problem with Cirruses happen when pilots who are not qualified to fly missions do so because of all of the fancy gadgetry onboard (including the chute) such as this person who was a VFR-only pilot who flew into thick IMC without a weather briefing!!! Nonesensical regardless of what fancy equipment you have on board! The plane gets a bad rap but it's not the plane, it's the people flying it!!!!
     

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