1987 Ferrari Testarossa Head removal -Stuck bad!

If you choose a new motor, Jay Leno mentioned a web site, wrecked exotic .com as a source of parts for "out of production" cars. I did a Gogle search and they exist and have your car.

I have never used them.

Lee

 

So would I (and I hope to see it when I pick up my TR). I only have David Moore's written description from his email that notes the same problem of how there's no direct easy access to the stud ends:

"I finally got your other head off around 6:30 last night. We had been soaking the studs in PB Blaster and CLR for days, heating it up and had it moved about the thickness of the head gasket where it simply would not move any more. So broke down and spent a day in our machine shop fabricating a TR head puller as it just was not going to come off with conventional methods. I've had to make pullers for old v12 Ferrari's but never had to so on the later cars till now.... Pretty complicated tool as compared to the old V12 pullers as the head studs are recessed under the camshafts so had to make 3 external style pullers with (9) 16mm allen bolts to screw the head off. It took using all 9 in sequence a 1/4 turn each at a time all the way till the last half inch."

David Moore's username here is "speedmoore" so you might send him a PM, and ask if he'd post a jpeg (if he doesn't/hasn't seen this thread -- but he might consider the design as proprietary information).

 

I would be interested in 'Renting' it from him if possible. Is he in TX?

 

Yes, Moorespeed is located in Ausin, TX:

http://www.moorespeed.com

 

The frame devices that Chris posted pictures of look like they bolt to the intake and exhaust ports, then press down on the head studs. Is that correct?

In the case of the TR engine, you don't have a straight down shot at the head studs. The TR heads looks suspiciously like the 308 QV engine's heads.

Here is a QV head puller frame I devised but never implemented. I think the idea can be expanded to the length of the TR head.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1433969&stc=1&d=1323560415

The basic idea is that you bolt the thick steel plate to the top of the head using all of the cam cap and cam cover studs. The "collar" fits around the base of the head and is bolted together at the two lap joints. It rests against suitable solid parts of the block. The 308 engine has a lot of places to block and shim the collar. I don't have a TR block handy, but the principle should be the same. A set of threaded rods with nuts welded to the tops are run through the threaded holes in the head plate and land in cups milled into the collar. The cups keep the rods from wandering off and splaying out. These rods are spaced to match the approximate spacing of the head studs.

Get everything snug, then start turning the rods a little bit at a time...
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Find a machine shop that has an ESD (electro static discharge ) setup and they should be able to remove the studs to a predetermined depth and diameter without damage to the head itself. That should address the studs, don't know if the separation of head from the block will be any easier if corrosion is the issue. I have had broken bolts in other applications removed with ESC without damage to threads or other material..Good luck!

 

Or delivering your block/head to him and pay him to do it. I think we've found a solution!

With all the little problems we can have with these cars, removing a head would be the last thing I'd worry about, until now.

I didn't realize it was truly the head bolts keeping the two together, I'm a believer now.

Good luck!

 

This might be a long shot but what about packing the the whole block in dry ice for a couple of hours, then put some heat to the head and give a few whacks working around the mating surface of the head with a rubber dead-blow mallet?

I seem to recall some guy did this on an old Kawaski 900 bike engine a few years ago when the head was stuck to the jugs.

The expansion/contraction of the two parts might just be enough to let give you enough margin to break the bond between the head and block...

Don't know what effect the dry ice will have on the aluminum block casting and liners so you might want to check into this concern but if you are doing a complete bottom end rebuild you will probably be replacing them anyway.

Just my 2 cents worth..

Cheers-Colin Firth
Ontario Canada

Cheers-Colin Firth-Ontario Canada.

 

Trainman, looks like it is probably what Moorespeed used. Only, I'm not sure that design will work with a TR because there is nothing to push off on in the injection side or top of the head. The bottom you could push off on the transmission.

 

You're on the right track. You definitely need to attach blocks to both intake and exhaust studs and push from outside the head. The tricky part is creating a solid place for the force screws to push against. On the top side there are the connecting rod access ports. On the bottom side there is the mounting flange of the gearbox. It is important to make something that distributes the pressure as evenly as possibly along the length of the engine to prevent damaging the castings. With a dozen or so screws tightened sequentially, it will come off.

No.

As I pointed out before, it isn't the gasket that is holding anything. The studs are coated with corrosion that is binding in the holes.

 

As pushing on the pistons using the sparkplugs holes caused some concern, I suggest an alternative would be to bolt a thick steel plate across the top of the head and have threaded holes that line up with the sparkplug holes but are of smaller diameter, thus a long threaded rod could push through and on to the top of the pistons. And yes I consider sacrificing the pistons as a small loss in this situation.

The only other thing I can suggest, as we cannot push on the head studs, is to make a very solid frame that completely surrounds the engine block and this single head. Made out of say 100 square RHS. This bolts to the head block face of the side of the block where the head has already been removed using ALL studs.

You then block a thick steel plate across the top of the head and bolt studs (many of them, ie. at least the same number as head studs) to it that go out and through this solid frame. You then tighten nuts up on these studs that would pull the head towards the frame, ie: See attachment.

Pete
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Hang on, why don't we just split the block in half as don't TR engine split (unbolt) down the middle?. You could then remove all pistons and you could turn a shaft that is installed where the crankshaft would have been. This shaft has huge threaded holes inline with the center of the combustion chambers (maybe, see following paragraph) and you machine up 6 steel piston like shapes that is installed in replace of the pistons. The huge threaded rods push on these steel "pistons" to protect the combustion chamber as much as possible.

Then bolt the other block half back on and using an extension on your powerbar access these huge threaded rods via the opposite combustion chamber ... this might mean that the threaded rods have to be offset and thus won't push directly in the middle of the combustion chamber ... but so what?

I think this is better than the frame around the engine suggestion I just made in the previous post.
Pete
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Before you try something that might damage the engine you might want to try taking it to a large rebuild shop that has a large ultrasonic cleaner. Have them put it in the tank overnight with solvent. It might help the solvent penetrate and loosen up the head bolts or at least you will have a really clean engine. They are fairly expensive so only large shops would have one large enough.

Jim

 

I built a head puller as was suggested. Pushing off of the transmission and middle engine hump. At this point when I tighten the 1/2 inch bolts, that are part of my head puller, to pull the head- the only thing that happens is the bolts max out and bend and my 1/8 inch steel frame bends- head doesn't budge. Still trying. I will update with pictures and progress.

 

I haven't read all of the posts but have you considered hydraulic or grease pressure to pop the heads off. You would have to make a manifold where you could screw lines into the spark plug holes and using a hydraulic pump pressurize the cylinders. Just a thought.

 

I doubt that 1/8" steel is going to get it done.

 

Most I have seen are 1/2" plate...

You are working the head studs with a penetrant?

 

Early fiat 1100/1300 sohc engines suffer from stuck head disease when the aluminum head welds itself to the steel studs. One folk remedy is to apply dilute phosphoric acid (sold in the soft-drink section of your local grocery store as "Coca-Cola") to the offending studs over a period of a few days to attack the corrosion.

This is a folk remedy. No double-blind clinical studies have validated the safety or efficacy of this treatment. It is possible that all the reported successes can be attributed to the placebo effect. But at least it won't break anything.

I know of one stud that was so welded to the head that when the head and block finally separated (a sledgehammer was involved), the stud stayed with the head and took a piece of the block with it. And that was a cast-iron block

 

Said that already above. Great minds think alike

 

Surgical strike with laser. Come on thats got to be way cooler then all this other traditional known to work stuff. Small incisions on the studs from the side.

 

One hammer. Many chisels. Commitment. Impact. Leverage. Aluminum repair.

 

I would go this route:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/85-Ferrari-testarossa-complete-V12-engine-motor-/140660522761?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item20c0053f09

BT

 

From what I'm told stuck heads are a common problem on certain British cars.

http://www.triumphwedgeowners.org/twoa-tech-center.html
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Very interesting contraption...I hope this ends up ok and the engine can be salvaged.

 

Yes, I've heard the coca-cola trick before, also - and this is hard to believe - but plain old water should do it as well.

I've been in situations where I've had to remove emergency valves from underneath tanker truck trailers and they too get stuck due to the aluminum casting/steel stud mix. To start the separation of the valve from the tank, I've heated the aluminum valve flange with an oxy-actylene torch and, with the residual water left over in the tank from our steam-cleaning process, once they start to soak the studs, the valve eventually falls off!

If you ever get the heads off the block, remember to coat the studs with anti-seize before putting them back on (except, don't get anti-seize on the threads as that will mess up the torque values)!