512TR Gearbox problem.

So this is NOT good?


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEc7dckjGro[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grUOSKCbAX4[/ame]

 

You will never see me do that Ken !

 

Looks just like me on my way to work each morning in my Honda

P

 

For the TR burnout issue, from previous posts here I thought it had been agreed it is a bad idea.

Drifting, Alex Zanardi winning CART races, and PlayStation were all post 1984 events. I don't think they had Wookies in mind when they designed her.

 

We opened the gearbox today ................

Crown and pinion and diff must be replaced.....

Although it looks an easy thing to get all the needed parts, it's not .....

OEM parts or refurbished gearbox; nicely made non-OEM parts from the others ide of the world ?

So I am now mailing lots of guys, firms and asking for availability, prices ....

In the last three years, I only took the F on the highways for a fast drive, never made burn-outs or so.

Still there is a lot of damage at only 75.000 km's.

To me it is now clear that one day, this may happen to almost all TR's / 512TRs ......

Picture 4 shows that due to dis disorder there is space on one shaft.... which may have caused the jumping-out (see the video) !

Will keep you all updated....
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Hi Melvok, I see in pic number 3 your diffcarrier gave up the ghost. Could this be the start of the chain reaction that broke everything else? Or could the Crown wheel & pinion go first and then take the diff carrier out causing everything else?

Strongs man, good luck for the repair bill.

 

I think so Nico ...

My question always was: when do you inspect the gearbox...?

Taking off the gearbox from the engine only costs you a little extra time ...

And if you are too late ... well you can see what may happen ...

For me it is now obvious: if you have an old (OEM) carrier, every Engine-Out, take the time to open the gearbox... ..... and exchange it !

 

Are you going to get the upgraded diff carrier?

 

Not to start a new diff carrier discussion than can last as long as the dreaded cambelt discussion, but replacing the diff carrier would be one of the first things on my to do list when buying my Testarossa together with a major engine out service.

Prevention is so much better and cheaper than replacing the entire gearbox. Get Newman's diff carrier which I believe is superior than the OEM diff carrier. Why NOT do it????

Just weight up the costs of replacing against the costs of repairs. Make sense then to replace first and then have the peace of mind to do a burnout if so desired..........

 

Hi Adam,

It is not so easy .... I have a large "shopping-list" now....

And maybe I can get the complete job done by someone who has parts...

It depends on the offers.... but I intend to do so.

On the other hand, a new OEM carrier can again last another 30.00 miles again ....

Will you keep you all posted ....

 

You have two problems. First gear is bad and that and probably not related to to the differential failure.

 

Please keep this thread going and share your repair experience.

 

Not two but three problems (or more): diff, gears and crown and pinion.

And of course: ALL related to the same problem ....

"First gear is bad" ... only now we noticed because the box is now opened ...

Maybe you can drive it for another 100.000 kms without problems ... who can tell ?

A gearbox is a sort of miracle box .... or is it a Box of Pandora ... ?

If one problem occurs in a gearbox, all achses, gears and shimms get the results ...

Biggest problem is now: a shopping-list and wher can you find the parts...

After that decisions have to be made : which parts (pricing) do you buy and when ...

 

Damn Mel,

I hope mine doesn't look that bad when I get to remove it, but I have a nasty feeling we will be brothers in pain.

The worst part for me is the crown wheel and pinion. Nobody seems to make these, not even Modena here in Australia.

And if previous threads are any information at all, $17000 from Ferrari does not seem to be a very good option.

Rob

 

Here's a rookie and loaded question BUT can a change of gear oil help prevent or prolong this?

 

I would seriously doubt it.
I'm surprised the car would still move with that much ring and pinion damage! You said your only problem was jumping out of 1st gear. Jumping out of gear only in 1st, I would of guessed worn synchromesch.



Ago

 

I don't think so, Both Mel and Robert are 512 experts and take really good care of their cars.
The fault IMO is the stress set up in the diff welding process. While there are many cars that may never exhibit this failure, it is becoming more and more evident that the failure is something to look out for. The down side to that is that no matter how careful we as drivers are, this fault can still occur. There are however many cars on the road with high mileage that have never had this problem, so not all is doom and gloom. It's something Ferrari should have fixed a long time ago.
I was once a disbeliever but now having seen first hand Roberts and Mel's transmission problems I am beginning to change my mind

P

 

Good ol Newman also offers ring and pinion gears, for something like 6K.

I've had my Newman carrier for my boxer some time now, but I think it's time to put it in, at the next engine out service!
Plus I think I'll replace the sodium filled exhaust valves while I'm at it.

It seems, worst case, the broken carrier will set you back about 25K for repairs.
And a dropped valve head about the same amount. So 50K for two disasters on a car worth 100K. No thanks! The Newman carrier costs about 3K and the valve replacement about 5K.
Throw in the timing belts, bearings, etc, and for about 10 grand she'll be more or less bullet proof,,,, sort of....

John

 

Hi Robert, are you sure your crown-and-pinion is damaged ? Are you sure ?

I never thought I would have to go shopping around the world/Internet for F parts....

Happy that I have all the time of the world because if you are in a hurry you would buy an "new' box in the US or Italia for $K25 or even more...

Quess What: ... I found someone with a 512TR gearbox ... (only the pinion wheel is broken exactly like mine) ... !!

Where ? .........

Of all places in the World ... in The Netherlands ...only some 200 kms away ...

I may buy his (perfect) crownwheel for about $ 400; and I will do that if I can find a good factory that will make a perfectly matching pinion wheel...

Then I must decide about buying a used 512TR OEM diff, new 512M OEM diff, the well-known Newman carrier or a locally made, one-piece carrier.

Not that easy.... but money counts.

Most definately I will not go for the OEM 512TR althoug it is only € 1250 !! (A bargain!)

Next Tuesday I will deeply discuss it all at my new gearbox repairshop ...(the guy with the 512TR gearbox).

This posting just underlines that simply getting your gearbox fixed or replaced is ONLY easy if you spend very, very much money....

It takes a lot of time and communicating but so, maybe I am able to control the proces and have it best for least money; typically Dutch of course !!

Will keep you all posted.

 

So .......... back from "The North" of Holland.

Very, very interesting talk to a F gearbox shop owner...

It seems that in my gearbox, when it broke once, long before me, a Testarossa diff was installed.

And why not, all F diffs fit in 365, 512BB and the Testarossa family.

He also states he has repaired dozens of diffs during the last decade.

He explains: this gearbox was made for 365 cars with 310 HP; now f.i. the 512TR has 428 HP ...

The welding is also still the same of end '8 and not very well performed ...

Still the diff is made in Germany by well-known ZF factory.

The crown and pinion not, they were in IT manufactured.

He showed me on broken part of a Testa diff and one fully functional diff (the little round part).

This broken part is exactly cracked as mine and many others here posted.... identical...

The other one, I have never seen or seen documented: one piece carrier, OEM F numbers but sure not 512M.

Anyone has seen this one ? Looks like a late 512TR diff ...

And he states that the diff, found in my 512TR gearbox is not original 512TR but from a older Testarossa ....

Tomorrow I will transport my gearbox ... to Germany ...

Where it will be refurbished during the coming 3 - 4 months .... because it is not a simple week-end repair.

At least I am happy I found a affordable / fair priced repair solution for my gearbox .. as said before: it's not so easy at all !

Will keep you all posted...
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Mel pretty sure that is a 512M diff carrier you can tell by the square cutouts in the LHS. I believe still made by ZF.

 

The owner took this one out and replaced it with a 512M version he states...

This seems to have been a in-between diff... maybe the 1994 version for the 512TR ...

Between 512TR and the 512M because they found out the diffs were not reliable ...

The 512M was 1 kilogramm heavier and bigger he says...

I saw a note from ZF History Desk, stating there have been 4 diffs and that makes sense then...

 

Interesting Mel. The ZF part No I have is 4061006095700, which does not show with your numbers. When I checked about 18 months ago there were only a few in existence 1 in Italy and 1 in Switzerland. ZF does, however ,do additional runs to produce more when stock runs out. Price is however the issue and as we see perhaps not the best available.

 

Well Mike, the doc is direct fron ZF as you can see....

The diff I made a photo of is also "not known"... but you can see it does exist ...

It has been a great pain in the .... for the Ferrari factory ... and at the end they solved it in the 512M.

Almost all vehicles, 512 + Tr familie will one day have such problems ...

My gearbox specialist stated he already repaired over one hundred of them ... makes you think ... !

Today he inspected the inside of my gearbox and is almost certain what had happend...

The repair before I had the 512TR (so before 56.000 kms) was done inedequate.

The shafts were not fastened with the appropriate tools (viible damage) and were not all proper secured.

This resulted in space where it should not be ... with these catastrophic results ... (space visible on the left)

You can also see the wear in this first gear set ... it must be replaced a.s.a.p. to prevent breaking-off teeth...

Pitty for me ... but now it will be fixed for always I think
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Mel sounds like you are in the right place. Good luck with the rebuild and hope it all goes smoothly. Good thing it is during your winter so you can spend countless hours detailing the engine bay!