A single engine plane (Socata TBM-7000) crashed on Rt. 287 in NJ today - a road I used to commute on every morning. There's video of the aftermath at the bottom of this article: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/dead-jersey-plane-crash-article-1.994340 A husband, wife, 2 kids, and a colleague all died in the crash. RIP, terrible news.
Oh no. I wonder what happened? Sounds pretty odd. I'd have to say either spatial disorientation and subsequent structural failure or some kind of catastrophic control surface malfunction. Always sad, no matter what the cause. RIP.
Yeah, I would agree about the control surface malfunction, followed by unusual attitude that placed too much stress on the airframe, causing one of the wings to snap off. Why are you guessing spatial disorientation? Were they flying high enough to require oxygen (system may have had problems)? Or do you think they had a leak via the carb heat or cabin heat and carbon monoxide poisoning caused disorientation? Or were they in fog/haze? Was there a flight plan filed that we can look at or are flight plans not a public record? Please forgive me if this sounds like unseemly speculation at this time. I am new to General Aviation--just trying to learn as much as I can.
Wow, that seems like something that should have been cared for. I'm not a pilot, but I know commercial airlines spray the wings - do small aircraft do the same? If so, I'd guess that's the responsibility of the pilot. From what I gather, he was experienced.
Spraying the wings de-ices the plane before it takes off. But think of it like using your windshield washer fluid... it cleans it up, but only lasts so long before you need to do it again. However, in the air you cannot spray your wings. Some planes have alcohol sprays, some have heated "boots" (usually a black panel on the leaading edge of the wing), some have a vibration system to break the ice off. There are other systems too. Some work better than others. The Blackhawk, which I flew for years had boots and an ice meter. Let me tell you there is nothing scarier than ice on rotor blades or hearing it go flying off of them. Power requirements change by as much as 100% There are now reports that the pilot was asking about ice. Unconfirmed reports are that the pilot was not sure if the clouds ahead had ice, or he was all ready experiencing icing. Also he was at 17.5K so O2 should have been on, although no report of pressure problems or light headedness. I had my fixed wing training in the area and have flown out of that airport many times. Lots and lots of radio traffic and planes! To me sounds like ice built up, he stalled, and could not recover due to the ice on the wings.
First of all, the TBM-700 is pressurized, so oxygen probably wasn't an issue, although it could have been. Icing quite possibly was the problem, at least based on current conditions. Anyone on here fly a TBM? How does it do in ice?
I watched it fall from the sky from Rt 24 in Florham Park. It was billowing dark smoke and spiralling fast toward the ground. It was terrible, especially when I found out that there were kids on the plane also. That image is burnt into my mind. Apparently there was an icing issue. RIP.
I was thinking flight in low visibility that led to loss of control...very common GA accident contributor. It was just a guess, and now it appears to have been incorrect. BTW -- what about icing would cause black smoke to "billow" from an aircraft?
Black smoke sounds like something mech. Could have been an engine issue, heater issue, electrical causing fire... Lots of things can cause a fire on a plane.
I'd imagine that, if the icing were severe enough, it could have caused breathing problems for the engine, but I would also think that an aircraft like the Socata would have some pretty stout de-icing equipment on board. I know it has boots. It will be interesting to see if they were activated. Anyway, icing is one of my biggest concerns as a pilot and one reason why I try to avoid flying north during the winter months. My aircraft is not equipped, and more importantly I'm not equipped to mess with it. Looks like it can still be a problem anyway. Again, how sad and RIP.
I didn't read the full report, so I could be totally wrong. But smoking on the way down = fire to me. Probably a cabin fire. Lots of smoke. Spatial disorientation. Over stress. I fly for a living and a cabin fire is a worst case scenario. Unless you can determine the source, things can get bad quickly. 2 747's...UPS and Asiana, went down recently due to fires.....
I agree-- that would be worst case. However, in that scenario I think he would have said something to ATC, or requested a lower altitude, or something...
From the witnesses accounts: PITCHING WILDLY ...when it began pitching wildly in the sky before losing a wing and crashing into a wooded median, the company said. A section of a single engine plane that crashed in the wooded median of Route 287 in Harding, crashed onto the intersection of James Street and Springbrook Road in Morris Township. (Robert Sciarrino/The Star-Ledger) SOMETHING WAS CALLED IN A garbled transmission preceded the sudden and devastating plunge, according to the Federal Aviation Administration. WING DEPARTS PLANE A wing from the plane was found in the tree of a home about a quarter-mile from the point of impact, and witnesses said the craft appeared to fall apart in mid-flight. Wreckage was scattered across a half-mile stretch. FELL LIKE A LEAF OUT OF CONTROL “It was like the plane was doing tricks or something, twirling and flipping,” said Chris Covello of Rockaway Township. “It started going straight down. EVEN THE TBM WILL BREAK “I thought any second they were going to pull up. But then the wing came off and they went straight down.” SMOKE COMING OFF BOTH WINGS “It was really scary,” said a third witness, 19-year-old David Williamson, who saw smoke coming off both wings before the plane slammed to earth. DISAPPEARED SHORTLY AFTER TAKE OFF The plane disappeared from radar shortly after taking off from nearby Teterboro Airport, said Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Jim Peters. FROM FLYING Icing has been identified as a possible factor in the crash of a Socata TBM 700 in New Jersey on Tuesday, although the NTSB has not confirmed what role, if any, weather conditions may have played in the fatal accident. All five people on board the single-engine turboprop were killed on Tuesday morning when the airplane, which had taken off from Teterboro Airport 14 minutes earlier, scattered debris including a wing across a half-mile area before crashing onto Interstate 287. No one on the ground was injured. Witnesses say they saw the aircraft in an out-of-control descent shortly before it crashed onto the highway, with some reporting that the wing broke off before impact. According to investigators, the pilot of the TBM 700 requested and was granted clearance to a higher altitude shortly before ATC lost radio and radar contact with the airplane, which had reached an altitude of 17,500 feet. The pilot had a short conversation with the controller about icing conditions, with moderate rime conditions being reported through 17,000 feet. “The pilot told air traffic control he was picking up some ice,” said an NTSB spokesman. “How much ice is unknown. We may never know.” The TBM 700 was registered to 45-year-old owner Jeffrey Buckalew, who was believed to be piloting the aircraft at the time of the accident. After the crash, parts of Route 287 were closed for hours as NTSB investigators worked to remove and preserve the wreckage. While the aircraft was not required to carry a flight data recorder, investigators recovered a handheld GPS receiver from the scene and are looking for other recoverable data cards within the wreckage. FROM OTHER CHAT SITES Originally Posted by matthammer Couldn't find the audio on liveATC's archives. I did hear some airline folk in the area reporting moderate or greater icing, though. It is up now - on the 'interesting recordings' page - airlines were reporting mod-extreme icing in the area as he was climbing up to 17K. __________________ Last radar track on him was 17,400 at 90 kts GS.....whatever happened to them happened fast. __________________ When told of the icing the pilot tells ATC: "We can go right through it." That's the real cause of this tragedy. Logged David7700 Newbie Offline Posts: 2 Re: TBM-700 N731CA crash outside of MMU « Reply #10 on: December 21, 2011, 11:07:49 AM » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote from: StrongDreams on December 20, 2011, 03:09:54 PM Is that rate of decent even plausible? I wonder if the transponder or altimeter was wrong. From 18,000 feet to ground in 1 minute is 180 miles per hour straight down...it seems like there should be some horizontal component to the movement. Even AF447 was only falling at 10,000 feet per minute, while keeping around 60 knots forward motion, if I remember right. Yes. Reports are he lost a wing due to the stresses on the airframe. RIP to that family and their friend. Logged David7700 Newbie Offline Posts: 2 Re: TBM-700 N731CA crash outside of MMU « Reply #11 on: December 21, 2011, 11:09:00 AM » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote from: etobias on December 21, 2011, 09:34:30 AM When told of the icing the pilot tells ATC: "We can go right through it." That's the real cause of this tragedy. +1 Logged Wilky10 Newbie Offline Posts: 1 Re: TBM-700 N731CA crash outside of MMU « Reply #12 on: December 21, 2011, 12:24:37 PM » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I currently fly 2 TBM700s and have been in icing conditions on multiple occasions without any complications. The boot system on these aircraft have cycles. There are 3 different boot segments on the wings and one on the tail. The inboard section of the wing and the tail operate for 7 seconds. After this cycle the middle and outboard operate for 7 seconds. Then there is a cycle of 53 seconds that the boots do not operate. There is no way to speed up this cycle. This is the one downfall of this aircraft. Due to this operation cycle, I try to avoid any areas with pireps of moderate ice if possible. My thoughts and prayers go out to all family and friend affected. Logged JT1 Newbie Offline Posts: 1 Re: TBM-700 N731CA crash outside of MMU « Reply #13 on: December 21, 2011, 12:49:46 PM » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Listing to the audio clip I was reminded of a few things. It's always good to know your abilities as a pilot and the abilities / limitations of the aircraft your flying. When a pilot is over confident in their abilities, and /or over confident in the abilities of the aircraft they are flying, that is usually when bad things happen. It's very hard at this point to say what caused the accident as sometimes many factors can play a role. But given the weather conditions, it's easy to speculate or focus on ice. Having experience in a variety of single and multi-engine aircraft, but no time in the TBM-700 I can only speak in general and not specific to this accident. (Please note, I am not an expert and I feel we are always learning no matter how much experience we have in flying) De-ice boots can be quickly overwhelmed in moderate to severe icing, as well as a single engine turbo prop can be quickly overwhelmed too. When the boots are turned on too early, instead of the ice breaking away, it can form a barrier along the outer limits of the boot extension (as mentioned in a post above). At that point the boots become useless as the ice has caused a cavity for the boots to expand, contract, and never breaking the ice away. When an aircraft tries to climb too aggressively through ice, a reverse horse shoe effect can form along the leading edge of the wing, looking like: )C. ")" -being the shape of ice buildup and "C" -being the leading edge of the wing. Props can be overwhelmed by ice which can reduce the amount of thrust. Ice can make the prop off balance causing vibration and even throwing ice, which can be alarming to say the least. Many de-ice systems in light aircraft are designed to help in the event of an unexpected encounter with ice, buying time to help get out of a dangerous situation. From a human factors perspective, ice buildup can become very stressful and distracting. A white knuckle grip on the controls and looking back at the wings can cause sudden pitching up or banking in a situation where the aircraft is already struggling with performance, in icing, making a dangerous situation deadly. An auto pilot can trim an aircraft to unsafe attitude or power setting while trying to do what is programed in an attempt to overcome the adverse conditions that icing can cause. Fuel tank vents can get iced over causing fuel starvation. Pitot tubes and / or static ports anti ice system can become overwhelmed and in some situations we can forget to turn them on if it’s not done automatically by an ice detection system. Sometimes anti ice or de-ice systems fail which can contribute to an already bad situation. As for forward movement, if an aircraft goes into a spin that develops into a flat spin, usually there is very little forward movement. I am not trying to play arm chair quarterback nor am I trying to judge the decision making of the pilot at the controls (as I know nothing about his experience and we have very little information about the accident to go on). It's very sad when a fatal accident happens and my thoughts go out to the victims and their families. When an accident occurs in the industry it's best to let the investigators do their job and we can all learn from the findings. But in the preliminary stages it's best to brush up on our knowledge about the possible factors (NASA has done interesting studies on icing and the FAA has publications) and have discussions in forums such as this to get different perspectives, share experiences and learn from each other. An accident always reminds me that they can happen and it makes me take a second look at the calculated risks that I take. This time of year we need to remind ourselves that weather is not kind and it’s not forgiving. Weather is indifferent and I try to take a realistic approach when going up into the elements. Logged http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/tbm-700-n731ca-crash-outside-of-mmu/msg53544/#msg53544
From what I've heard from guys who fly TBMs, the performance really degrades when you turn the anti ice on, especially in the high teens. Combine that with severe icing, and maybe an autopilot in pitch mode (or worse, vertical speed), and you can get into trouble quickly.
Donv, can you explain that in more detail for a non-pilot? Can't be a 'power' issue...must be aerodynamic? TIA, Tritone
Due to an ATR crash in Roselawn, IN in the mid 90s, the FAA recommends that when in icing conditions to be hand flying to aircraft and not have the auto pilot on so the pilot can start to feel the aircraft struggle early on and take appropriate actions. Just some info on icing procedues.
Not sure how it works on the TBM but anti-icing on most engine inlets is done usuallly with bleed air and it is used to heat the inlet lips and also, sometimes areas inside of the inlets where ice can build up. Not only does the bleed air reduce the power available because you are using work to compress the air, and then it doesn't go thru the turbine and get the work back out, but the higher temperature air entering the engine also reduces the power available. Bottom line is that it's a "double whammy" because on turboprops, not that much air is entering the engine (as compared with a fan engine) in the first place and you are bleeding some, as well as heating all of the air. It isn't a big deal at lower altitudes, because the engine is "flat rated" to 850 hp. What that means is even though the engine can make 1700 hp at sea level the gearbox can only handle 850, so you don't give the engine all the throttle it can handle until you get up high enough that all it can make is 850 hp. All that happens a low altitude is you run the engine a bit harder to make up for the bleed and inlet heating. Once you get to the altitude to which the engine is flat rated, you start to reduce the power available.
GOT IT! Thanks. So it is a power issue....did not expect that icing on the intake; only thought about the flying surfaces....
Used to have 'Carburerator Heat' on carb'd engines... to prevent carb icing, but that didn't use bleed air.
