Catalytic Converter Woes . . . Replacement Options?

Hello,

I've been waiting for a little bit to introduce myself to the forum, and I promise I will shortly (and plan to be active and hopefully help as much as so many of you all here)!

My car (a '97 550) developed an exhaust leak from what appears to be the right hand catalytic converter (passenger side) . . . underneath the heat shield! I discovered this one day after taking delivery of the car I purchased from the dealership, and it was not caught in the PPI. I am hoping it can be repaired cheaply and easily with weld or something, but jury's still out and the shop is taking a look at it. But, even if it can be fixed, when peaking into the cat. after opening up a bolt - looks like there was loose material broken apart in there, as well.

It appears that OEM replacement catalytic converters are horrendously expensive (unless I am reading Ricambi's website incorrectly, upwards of $10K for just that one side?).

http://www.ricambiamerica.com/parts_catalogs.php?M=FE&P=&V=diag&I=317 - I think this is the right diagram, and I think it's 168566 I need, but not sure. Over $10K for that part . . . that hurts a bit. I would imagine that if you replace one, you would likely also want to replace the other . . . just to make sure you are getting even flow (I suspect this car is picky about that).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ferrari-550-Catalytic-Converters-Cats-Exhaust-/300623115393?hash=item45fe88b481&item=300623115393&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr - Looks like someone has a set on eBay for $5,500.00, but that even seems a hair excessive.

When you click through, Ricambi suggests using their Hyper Flow Catalytic Converters which are OEM fit and should plug right up, also 15% less restrictive than stock . . . and $3,300.00 for the pair.

http://www.ricambiamerica.com/product_info.php?cPath=175&products_id=262543

Is there a downside to going this route? Ricambi said it should bolt up to the factory components of the other ends of the exhaust system.

Now, even a little crazier . . . would sensors/ECU's start to act screwy or cause any issue if one went with a cat. delete solution like Capristo's?

http://www.capristoexhaust.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=vmj_color_plus.tpl&product_id=119&category_id=39&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=89

Does anyone have any experience with this? Other than being less green than one would like, does this cause any mechanical issues/concerns with the vehicle? It seems like a less expensive solution, a way to increase horsepower, and get better sound from an otherwise quiet car . . . and save money in the process. But, if it's going to trip the U.S. ECU's or cause issues, then that's obviously not a viable solutions.

I would imagine I am not the first one to run across an issue like this, and any help would be appreciated! Thanks in advance for the guidance, folks.

-Vivek (lilviv)

 

Go with the Hyperflows. Don't go with cat delete pipes. It only gives you problems.

 

I suspected as much. What kind of problems might one encounter, other than a check light thrown from the Oxygen Sensor behind these cats.? Does anyone make an MIL defeater that tricks the computer into thinking all is well here, or does that reveal and cause other dangers, as well?

 

Hey Guys, I appreciate the response (although somewhat limited), and I'll be giving the Hyper Flow's from Ricambi a go . . . hopefully, they will be nicer and more restrictive than stock ones, a better value, still legal, and may still please the ECU Gods on the car without further modification. I will keep everyone posted with pictures and thoughts here.

A silly question . . . the stock cats. have a pretty extensive and insulated heat shield around them . . . and these do not appear to . . . would that cause any issue, you think, with heat emanating to neighboring components on the car?

 

Viv, if you're going with the Hyperflows, make sure they have the bungs for the thermocouples to monitor their internal temperature. If they don't, you'll either need to have them added, or you'll need to go with the Fat Billy Bob mod and bypass the Slow Down ECU's.

They'll also need bungs for the O2 sensors, but I'm sure they already have those.

 

YES -- they have the bungs for both the thermocouples and O2 pre-fitted. You can see both in this picture:
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Ricambi has the best no brainer functional good looking solution period!



However, since I'm so cheap what I have done is remove the OEM cat. Then build a jig out of steel to bolt the oem cat onto on either end. Then cut off the oem cat body and weld in a new cat body. Problem solved. Very high performance metal matrix 200 or 300 cell cat is used. cheap as dirt. not real pretty. work as good as any hi flow cat because a hi flow cat body is used.

By the way 02 extenders trick the down stream 02 sensor 100% of the time. That method which I have posted on before has never failed me. I even use that method on my corvette Z06 racecar because I am too lazy to tune out the system in HP tuners. 02 sims can be made but are illegal to sell I think.


Shhhhh! don't tell anyone:

http://www.verociousmotorsports.com/Shop-by-Category/Catalytic-Converters/Metal-Core-High-Flow-Catalytic-Converter

 

So could straight pipes be used w/ 02 extenders and not have any CEL's?

Colby

 

Absolutely yes! But sometimes you need to tune the extender length to keep the downstream 02 sensor giving happy signals to the ECU upstream. It is very simple works 100% of the time. Doing it right now on Z06 racecar with headers, no cats, all 4 02 sensors in place on stock tune with stock motor. I have run Ferraris this way too. But my 550 is currently completely street legal

 

Hey Guys, I officially have my car back home . . . longest saga for a new addition to the garage ever. =P I've owned the car since early November, and it only spent 2 days at my house before the leak was found . . . and then went back to the shop until this afternoon.

I believe the holidays put Ricambi's supplier behind or something, as it took 4 weeks to get my pipes/cats. as opposed to the 2 weeks they had mentioned. In any event, the cats. came in yesterday, and they are on and look pretty good.

Although, for scale . . . in that picture posted earlier in this thread . . . those black/white tiles must be pretty small, 'cause I was picturing big tiles that made those pipes look huge. They are actually very short . . . just the cat. portion, for the most part.

Now, as it turns out . . . my "exhaust leak" was a pretty hugely catastrophic cat. failure.

http://www.lilviv.com/personal/images/stories/user_added/motoring/550maranello/blowncat.jpg

How does that even happen? Any ideas?

The new ones are installed . . .

http://www.lilviv.com/personal/images/stories/user_added/motoring/550maranello/hyperflowcat_overview.jpg

http://www.lilviv.com/personal/images/stories/user_added/motoring/550maranello/hyperflowcat_zoom.jpg

Car got remarkably quieter since it had an enormous hole before . . . only drove it from the shop to home, but look forward to putting some miles on it later in the week and this weekend.

Maybe later I will replace the midpipe!

Thanks again for all those who responded and helped with my decision here; it's very appreciated. Now, hopefully can begin the journey of owning my first F-Car . . .
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It could be that the PO ignored a cat hi-temperature warning. Excessive temperatures in catalytic converters are mostly caused by a misfiring or flooded engine, allowing fuel into the catalyst where it is burned off, leading to temperatures that can easily be fatal for a cat. The PO or seller was most likely aware of this problem!

You may want to get the ignition checked on that bank at the very least, before you strand by the side of the road with one of you new catalytic converters glowing red hot. It could be that the thermocouple on that side is also damaged and won't warn you anymore, and the lambda sendor is possibly toast as well, have that checked.

Also, that is a bad thing to miss in a PPI, the sound of that leak must have been pretty obvious? I would ask my money back at the very least.

 

Viv I hope your cost of ownership will drop a bit now, and you can enjoy driving the car finally. You should be just about set now.......until summertime Then we'll have to compare notes again on operating temps.

p.s. Keep an ear tuned for strange noises in your timing belts, and frankly, if I were you, I'd pop those front covers off after 500 miles or so and have a look at everything, as Pete did. His doing so probably saved his engine.

 

Thanks for the feedback here!

Actually, the shop that I bought the car from was the one who had provided the PPI (which did turn up quite a few things), and they were also the one who did all the service. I realize the conflict of interest here, but I did put a lot of trust in a very reputable shop.

http://inventory.racperformance.com/web/used/Ferrari-550-Maranello-1997-Dallas-Texas/934395/ - This is my car and the ad from which I purchased it a couple of months ago.

During the major service they performed, near the end . . . there was a strange problem causing only one bank of cylinders to fire. They ended up cleaning tons of the connectors and running an SD2 on it to clear codes, and the problem didn't recur. My guess is that it spent too much time "on" in this condition and flooded with gas during that whole ordeal, which then must have caused it to combust as soon as it warmed up and blow out the cat. Again, this is just my theory. If that's the case . . . I am hoping the damage is now remedied.

The shop did make an effort to "make this right" for me and added no labor for the diagnosing of the exhaust leak, replacement of the pipes, etc. - and, we split the cost of the new pipes, so my share was just at $1,650.00 + taxes, so just around $1,800.00. I felt that was a somewhat fair compromise.

So, after the purchase of this car . . . I had a major service done, remedied all issues found in the PPI (a trim piece, shift shaft seal, radiator petcock valve, A/C Pressure line, horn, etc.), proactively changed all three coolant sensors, upgraded to the SR Innovations Coolant Hose Kit (but had to replace all those clamps since they all backed off), proactively changed to new 575 Motor Mounts (even though the replaced ones were already 575 ones, but were sagging somewhat), did an alignment, and proactively changed those PITA front timing bearings. Much of the advice was due to conversations with cribbj, who I can't thank enough for the guidance through all of this. I am trying to invest on the front end to make a somewhat reliable 550 . . . and treat her well, hoping she will return the favor.

A year before I bought the car, the car had a fuel pump replaced, the clutch replaced, and a couple other small things. So, hopefully she should be considered "well maintained" if not even "well sorted" at this point. Additionally, this was all done after successful compression/leakdown numbers.

Again, all feedback is very welcome and appreciated. I am sure I overpaid for the car, especially considering the maintenance, but hopefully it will make for a great first time F-Car experience for me.

I will start a thread at some point after I get pics. up formally introducing myself and the car.

 

And, car's got a check engine light . . . can't seem to win with this one. Car's back at the shop; but runs well. Guessing it's just something related to the cat. change? I'll keep you guys posted.

At this rate, wonder how many years it will take me to put my first 100 miles on the car. =/

 

Ouch sounds troubling. Things to check: spark plugs, ignition and leads, lambda sensors, fuel pressure regulators, injectors.

I recall reading a story where a shop accidentally crossed lambda sensors between banks, so that the left sensor was connected to the right bank and vice versa. In that case I believe it led to one side running very rich with overheated cats, and the other very lean.

 

Could well be the problem caused the cat issue and still exists. Needs to be addressed by a competent shop IMO. Throwing parts as bandaids is expensive and frustrating for you, unfortunately the internet advice out there rarely goes into proper diagnostics in order to producing a good solution.

 

all good points and much appreciated. will post pics etc once I hear from the insurance company and see how this is resolved. the important thing is no one got hurt, and the car absorbed the damage, and since I saw it coming, and was stopped and had no where to go, I pushed on the brakes and braced myself and avoided being pushed into the SUV in front. F car brakes work well apparently!
That said, had I just tapped the SUV in front, and clipped the hood and front bumper, that , with the rear, would probably have immediately made the car a total loss. Its a shame because nothing puts a smile on my face like that V12 accelerating from 4000-6000 RPM with the pedal floored.

 

not sure how my last post ended up in this discussion, I meant it for somewhere else. sorry

 

Got her back this evening. The Check Engine Light was caused by the 02 Sensor downstream. They ended up properly grounding it (or adding a ground), and it appears to have remedied the issue. Although, they suggested it might come on and they'll have to do extenders.

There were also various other trouble codes that caused them to clean more ECU connectors . . .

Car runs great, and it got 100 miles or so on it after the work by the shop, and I put another 30 on it. No trouble, yet. Let's hope I get to enjoy her for a little bit!

 

Viv, sounds like you're a prime candidate for SRI's gold connector kit.

 

I agree.

 

Yeah, I was afraid of that. Was hoping to get away with maybe doing this kit next time . . . and just enjoying the car for a little while first. =P

I put just under 200 miles on her yesterday and today with no check engine light and what seemed like flawless operation, even at high speed. Finally feel like I can start the ownership experience. =P

Will start another thread for some questions I have about the kit, its installation, etc.

 

To Fat Billy Bob, I have just removed my exhaust system up to what I thought were the primary collectors. There are additional cats there, I can see a metal matrix inside. There are 4 in all, one each for 3 cylinders. What happens with these pre-cats? Do you build up the hi-flow cat jig to the twin pipe flanges going into the main cat? These pre-cats seem hi-flow when considering each one handles only 3 cylinders. When using a cat delete pipe are you keeping the pre-cats? Ricambi refers to these only as exhaust manifolds. The exit pipes for each 3 cylinders is plenty large enough, it is when the diameter reduces to 2.25in after the main cats that there will be restriction. I plan on 2 into 1 into a hi-flow 3in cat then 3 in pipes as far back as I can get. I don't know if the bend over the half shafts will fit at 3in however exhaust should be cool enough by then. If too loud I will just insert 3in ID resonators between the cats and the rear. I am already running no rear cans at all. Not too loud in the car but too loud to have much fun outside 6the car. There was a seat of the pants improvement after removing the stock cans after installing them for road worthiness inspection. The sound with the cans was pretty anemic.

 

Lets hope you get to put 20k on her before spending any more...

cheers,

bill

 

To Fat Billy Bob, I have just removed my exhaust system up to what I thought were the primary collectors. There are additional cats there, I can see a metal matrix inside. There are 4 in all, one each for 3 cylinders. What happens with these pre-cats? Do you build up the hi-flow cat jig to the twin pipe flanges going into the main cat? These pre-cats seem hi-flow when considering each one handles only 3 cylinders. When using a cat delete pipe are you keeping the pre-cats? Ricambi refers to these only as exhaust manifolds. The exit pipes for each 3 cylinders is plenty large enough, it is when the diameter reduces to 2.25in after the main cats that there will be restriction. I plan on 2 into 1 into a hi-flow 3in cat then 3 in pipes as far back as I can get. I don't know if the bend over the half shafts will fit at 3in however exhaust should be cool enough by then. If too loud I will just insert 3in ID resonators between the cats and the rear. I am already running no rear cans at all. Not too loud in the car but too loud to have much fun outside 6the car. There was a seat of the pants improvement after removing the stock cans after installing them for road worthiness inspection. The sound with the cans was pretty anemic.