Pricetag range V-12 rebuild?

If it's a running engine I would figure around 40k. Not running and it's possible to add 20-30k.

 

Just out of curiosity - and really to generate discussion - what do you get for that price? Is it principally parts or labor. What does a Ferrari restoration shop provide you that your local restoration shop, muscle car shop or speed shop can't provide. Is it really that much more difficult to replace bearings in a Ferrari than a Austin Healey or Camaro? How much can damage can a professional off-make rebuilder do?

 

I've seen quoted 120 hours + about 15,000 in parts. It also seems that California shop prices are higher then elsewhere in the country.

 

And furthermore I bought a car that had an engine rebuilt by someone who didn't normally work on Ferrari's and it had to be rebuilt again as it wasn't align bored correctly. You might think it's Ferrari dust that costs so much but I have heard so many stories about people doing this wrongly.

 

I was quoted 45 plus with a running engine. The "while in there" is the plus, which can be who knows...

 

Ersatzs2,

I just had my 330 engine rebuilt - sleaves not replaced just bored out with new pistons, valves, valve seats, seals, fully machined, bottom end done, etc. by Francois Sicard. I have not added up the recepts recently but it was about $30,000 of which, more than half was parts - lots of expensive little parts...

As long as you are doing the engine, you might as well go through the rest of the drivetrain to make sure nothing is about to fail. The extra power from a fresh engine may find some weak points.

If you want Francois' number let me know - he is one of very few people on the east coast that I would trust with the job.

Regards,

Art S.

 

I had my GTC engine rebuilt last year. I sent the block to Patrick Ottis where he matched pistons for the line bore. My local expert did the disassembly and re-assembly. Heads were redone also. In total the cost of the rebuild was about $40k including all parts and labor. The wildcard is what other items need to be replaced, rebuilt or reproduced. Some of the accessory items are just not available anymore. Reproducing pieces can get expensive.

Without knowing or seeing your engine I would say $50k should be a decent budget.

 

Printedgear,

There are a lot of little tricks of the trade that you need to know on old Ferrari engines. read some of the posts of Tom Yang's site, it will give you a sense of it. That said, a good engine builder can do a Ferrari engine, the question is why would you pay for someone's learning curve and reduce your probability of a good outcome if the hourly rates are not that different?

Regards,

Art S.

 

Art has it spot on, believe me you do not want to pay for someones learning curve M

 

Does anyone have first hand experience with Carobu?

 

I think all of my fellow F-Chatters will agree that if you have a
330 GTC (which is a great car & appreciating in value) you would
be wasting your money having the engine rebuilt by anyone other than
a well known Ferrari mechanic.

When the time comes to sell---a rebuild by Joe's Garage will not be
viewed very kindly (no matter how good Joe is). Spend the extra money & do
it right. A good restoration will be expensive--but a bad one will
be remembered forever !!

Ken Goldman

 

Ferrari Classiche quotes 58,800 € right now

 

My 365 motor was about $30k, and done by a very experienced, but not "name brand" guy. I've been very happy with the result.

 

While I wouldn't try to quote "sight unseen", the numbers that have been mentioned here ($27K to $40K) are in the right neighborhood. This is assuming that nothing unusual (such as a new crankshaft) is required. I would expect to install a new set of pistons among other things.

I would be careful when you select the person that does the work.

 

Who at Classic Coach will do the work?

 

Fitting, measuring and remeasuring everything in these engines is where things get lengthy. Lots of stuff in the block have to be dry assembled with the heads on to measure some things correctly, such as cylinders and align honing specs. This stuff takes time to not only measure, but also to do the machining work and do it correctly the first time. Lots of the parts have to be made which takes time. With parts, the price is the price. It's the world these engines and cars live in so there is not much to be done about it. You want a professional Ferrari guy do to an old scool V12. They are not like 308s, Daytona, or even Boxer engines which are sort of a straightforward process IMO.

 

After reading all the entries here,I think you could do a lot worse by sending it to this bloke in Qld,Aussie;Marc Jones cell:0417776216.
Last year he fully rebuilt my 330GT 2+2 engine for about $11000 in parts and about the 120 hours in labour quoted by yale.
The difference being the absolute eye watering difference in hourly labour cost compared to ANY other Ferrari trained technician.
If you are interested in going further,please PM me.
Cheers and good luck.

 

"align bore". Are you sure?

"line boring" is how you machine the main bearing supports so that the main bearings are perfectly aligned when the crank is installed.

There is nothing special about boring or honing the cylinders of a Ferrari V12. The trick is that you need dummy steel cylinder head plates bolted onto the block, to ensure that it doesn't flex during any of the machining. Also a good idea to fit a dummy crankshaft during the cylinder boring. No cylinder boring needed if you fit new sleeves of course, anyone can do this if you follow the workshop manual carefully.

The rest is standard hi-po stuff. Close and hone the con rods, balance everything, renew the rod bolts, etc, etc.

I recommend modern forged pistons, such as JE (made in USA). They are lighter, stronger and can run smaller bore clearance than the Ferrari OEM pistons (Borgo). Also K-line valve guides are much better than the OEM parts.

some pics from my daytona rebuild 4 years ago.
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Really? Are sleeves and pistons sold in matched sets? If not, is the piston to cylinder fit trial and error? I'm just curious...most of the engines I work on have an iron sleeve with an aluminum cylinder cast around it...the iron sleeve is bored/honed to exactly fit new pistons. IOW, I buy new pistons...then I send the pistons and the cylinders to the machinist who perfectly sizes each cylinder for a particular/corresponding piston...

The non-iron cylinders I work with are aluminum with Nikasil plating. They are matched by having a very tight manufacturing tolerance...which is further "tightened" by having three 'groups' within the manufacturing tolerance. The pistons and cylinders falling towards the small end of the manufacturing tolerance are paired...those falling at the large end are paired...those in the middle are paired.

 

The NOS liners I bought for my Queen Mary engine rebuild 20 years ago (originals had corroded severely due to leaking head gasket and engine sitting for long periods with water in the cylinders) were all remarkably accurate in size, ditto JE pistons. Minimal honing only required. That engine still going strong today and smoke free.

My Daytona liners were in good shape, so I took them out 20 thou and fitted +20 JE 10:1 pistons. 4 years later the engine is quiet, burns not a drop of oil and has perfect compression across all 12. The higher compression gives a useful power boost but the engine is still docile and doesn't overheat.

Have a buddy with a 330 running JE's, same result.

 

I assume this means you bought it? Good luck with the rebuild - which isn't rocket science - just use a very good engineer

 

Funny you say this, as I recently quoted $50K+ to do a rebuild on a non-running 330. She last ran about 28 years ago...and I just don't have a clue what I'm getting into. With compression ranging from zero to 40 psi, oil looking like sludge and "some funking looking nasty hard stuff" on the spark plugs, I'm hesitant to really give a meaningful quote until she's apart. Throw in carbs that have had fuel sitting in them for 30? years and distributors that are growing green stuff, there's another $5-10K. The "normal" rebuild stuff is predictable in pricing, it the "oops, how'd that get broken" parts that can cost big dollars.

Then again, there's always some yahoo that will quote $30K sight unseen...Sheeeet, at that price, I can't even do a quality rebuild on a QV.

 

I should add that my rebuild took about 9 months.