Pricetag range V-12 rebuild?

I agree fully.
You must only use an experienced Ferrari engine builder.
Align boring will only be done if the main bearing bores are out of round or scored very badly.
Align honing will be done to straighten out the main saddles and allow the crank to turn freely.
The biggest problem with having your engine rebuilt by an engine builder without Ferrari experience is that there is no room for error.
1 small error will equal catastrophe,
A v12 Ferrari is a special breed and special attention and care needs to be paid.
Oversize JE pistons are the way to go, this will allow you to have a perfectly round and straight bore, by boring the cylinder liners, then finish hone them to size.
Use a good Moly ring and Plateau hone for the final finish in the bore(torque plates are recommended).
The best way to determine cost is in a detailed dis assembly,
This way all sizes can be documented with proper measurements taken and you will be able to get a firm price then.
Brett at www.granturismo.ca is a great guy to talk to.
If you check out his website you can see all the great v12 work done there.

 

Just try to receive a time frame for the rebuild. They are a great shop, but rebuilds can take way over a year.

 

well, ahem, thanks for the shameless plug Scotty...and ya, we have a lot of Colombo V-12's under our belt now, but not specifically one of these motors...

and while it's just a smaller bore version of the Type 245 motor that we're so well versed in, it's more closely related to the Type 209 motor in the 2+2 that preceeded than it is to the motor that followed it in 'our' 365 GT.

down boy, down...

 

I appreciate your passion but I feel you are overstating things.

I also note, from looking at your posts elsewhere, that you appear to be in business with Brett, so your advice here is hardly impartial.

It is certainly preferable to have any type of engine built by someone with previous experience, but you don't have to go extreme effort and cost just because its a Ferrari.

 

While I don't disagree that a competent engine builder could do a good job on a first time vintage Ferrari V12 rebuild, I would say that there are two reasons why choosing an experienced Ferrari engine builder, if not one of the "name brands" in the business, makes sense:

1. First and foremost, an experienced Ferrari engine builder I think can make a difference in understanding the quirks of how these engines go together and work best. Everything from understanding how the oil and coolant passages need to be cleaned to setting up valve trains, seals and gaskets and clearances all can save time and money, not to mention provide peace of mind.

2. Secondly, the documentation that the engine was built by an experienced Ferrari engine builder will have an economic benefit when it comes time to sell the car. Potential buyers looking to spend six figures on a vintage V12 Ferrari will be much more likely to pay a premium price if the engine has been built by someone acknowledged as an expert in the field. Knowing that the engine was built by a Ferrari expert will take away a lot of the uncertainty in buying an engine that, if something goes wrong, could cost mid five figures to redo.

The additional price on resale might help recover some or all of the premium cost of the rebuild compared to an unknown first timer that charges less for the learning experience.

 

I wouldn't go with someone who had never rebuilt a Ferrari engine before, but there are many guys who are quite competent who are not "name brand" guys. The guy who did my engine, Jim Trofiter, is one example. He's rebuilt a number of Ferrari V-12s (and had a 330GTC open at the same time as my car), and yet no one on here has heard of him.

 

Shameless....just shameless. Aren't you and Brent partners in business together, or at the least have a vested interest in his business?

 

I've never quite understood how someone rebuilds, not overhauls, a Ferrari V12 engine for $30K. Unless you're skipping some steps, or maybe I just pay too much. I've gone through about 18 rebuilds through the years and it generally pans out to about $60K or so. $50K on the light side one. Even the 288 was $55K. It generally comes to 1/3 parts, 1/3 labor and 1/3 machine work. From my personal experience the wild card is how bad prior mechanics screwed things up over the years and that usually leads to some pretty interesting machine work. If you're lucky to get an engine that no one has opened up, runs and isn't corroded from the inside out (I've seen a few), that's the best case. But, I've seen clipped liners, different deck lid heights, cracks in cylinder heads and block that essentially used some form of JB Weld and then painted over it, screwed up line bores, machine work that looks like a caveman did it, wiped out camshafts, studs pulled out, etc., etc.

For better or worse, the mechanics working on my cars start at the crank and work their way out from there. I don't think I've ever had a Ferrari engine that didn't get a line bore. You do Ior should) custome size the pistons for each hole. I've used OEM, JE, CP and Woosner pistons, but always Carello rods. I do understand that some people call an overhaul, essentially a freshing, a rebuild. I'm talking about a line bore, new liners, pistons, rods, valves, go through the distributors, rebuild the carburetors, etc., etc.

I do live in California and labor is not cheap here. But, the price didn't seem to vary when I used the very well known and respected mechanics in Wisconsin or Arizona. It also depends on what parts you use. When I priced parts out, there is easily a 2X differential depending on what material and company you choose to make the stuff.

Do use someone that isn't using your car to learn.

Steve

 

oh my God, are you for real David ?

wasn't it painfully obvious from my post that i was completely 'caught out' by Scott's post ? i suppose i could have added the little purple, 'sheepish' looking icon, but i've never used those...i guess i should learn...

if i had of seen it within the 'edit window' i would have had him pull it...but it was long after that period had expired, so all i could do was 'caution' him, which i did...and in no 'uncertain' terms.

moreover, all he said was that the guy should talk to me...so, what's the real problem ?

it's not like he has a commercial post as his signature or an album full of commercial work in his profile, is it ?

God forbid he would do something that "shameless"...and it's probably because he's too busy building motors for me and for RM Auctions to bother.

what i won't apologize for though, is his enthusiasm...what can i tell you, he wants to build that motor...something wrong with that ?

brett


p.s. PM me the details of your F-Chat sponsership package and i'll discuss doing somthing similar with Rob...better ?

 

Ian,

please see the above...

but his 'advice', is bang on...how could anybody leave something as special as 330 GTC motor to anybody other than a seasoned veteran ?

i don't think he's overstated it one bit...and, again, all he did was tell the guy to talk to me...and he only did that because he noticed the guy was in Jersey, where we have a few customers.

that's it, that's all...

 

I thought I did that awhile back.,sorry...In that we both contribute substantially, on the technical side, I suspect that Rob is OK with our sponsorship levels. I'm glad that you like my email signature line ;-)

 

Over nearly 30 years around older V12 Ferraris, I have seen many instances of newer owners being "burned" by unscrupulous mechanics rebuilding engines that didn't need it and/or overcharging for rebuilds because the engines are "something special".

These bad experiences made some great cars awful ownership experiences.

I agree, I would lean towards a veteran every time, but a good engineer with experience in other high performance engines is perfectly capable of rebuilding a Ferrari V12.

 

"Over nearly 30 years..."

either way, i defer to your experience ! ; )

Scotty is pretty special though, as he not 'merely' an engine assembler...he does everything throughout the process...runs every machine along the way.
no one else touches anything (with exception of cam or crank repairs)...he's borderline OCD and he 'lives' with the friggin' thing when he working on it...i've caught him talking to heads...like, talking nice !?!


i know there's lots of great engine builders out there though, and that many guys who aren't working on Ferrari motors are certainly capable of it...no arguement there.

 

It's all about an automotive machinist, not a mechanic, not an engineer.
You need to be an automotive machinist and a good one.
I run all of the equipment.
Boring bar, computerized crank balancer, sunnen seat and guide machine, sunnen rod and pinn hone, ck10 power stroke cylinder hone.
I am an automotive machinist with over 20 years perfecting my trade.
Not to be confused with a mechanic. I don't change brakes and they dont balancev12 rotating assembles.
I am only on here to enjoy ferraris and to listen to others about their experiences, not get bashed by a small group of uptight wrenches,
Do what you guys do best, and I will do what I do

 

A V12 crank is actually the easiest crank to balance and often needs nothing or little to get it dead on not to mention its the easiest to set up to check balance vs a dual plane V8 for example. Its not sensitive to major weight reduction with reciprocating weight changes either which is a nice bonus.

 

Properly done, new sleaves, pistons, valves, valve seats and various other metal compontents I've been qouted about a 100 large. Too much for my poor little soul but, perhaps, not too much for some others.

 

No offense, but if that's a running motor, that's outrageous.

 

1/3 in machine work????? WOW... so anywhere from 12 to 20k in machine work? That is asinine. You could almost start by casting a brand new block and come out ahead. (I know why you wouldn't, im just saying) And yes I know that "replacement blocks" can be purchased and they are significantly more money but... I swear it can be done for less. Its just what the market can bare

I honestly can't even wrap my head around it.


Almost the Same with that amount in labor. 20k in labor is 200 hours at 100 bucks an hour... or 300+ hours at 75.

 

threads like this crack me up-especially the quips offerred by the "experiencial virgins"...

As these engines get older and older, they become more and more troublesome in just their disassembly for inspection, proper cleaning, then crack checking, and finally:measurement for dimensional assay. More than the neophyte can imagine...
"more than I can wrap my imagination around?"
{FYI-168/c block, currently being used as a door stop in Europe, cost $50,000.00 USD-un-finished machined! 138K euros, fully dyno'd, ready to bolt in...} That'd be 180K USD...no taxes, duty, shipping, insurance, etc.
Simply put-and in admittedly GENERAL terms: it's not wise to throw stones in a glass house-especially if one's experience is limited to standing around the bar drinking, and telling tall tales and or, parroting other bar room testimonials about cars and repairs that they've never done or had to pay for...In truth, I'm guessing that your comments are really not meant to denigrate the men who have spent their entire adult lives doing this, but rather one of astonishment that it costs this much, and that the majority of bills in fact get paid at that level...the single biggest escalator of expense is the over and over attempts at cutting corners by owners who "just want to sell the car", so "do only as much as it takes" to get it running to sell the car...you factually need a machineshop in house to do driveline work on these cars...ask yourself: how many machineshops have you been in lately that have Rockwell harness testers in them, now, ask how many auto repairshops-Ferrari or not....do the measuring guages indicate in thousandths or ten-thousandths(or hundred thousanths-millionths for that matter)..this is all very telling information....
The BS I listen to at places like Pebble Beach and at Cavallino has gotten so absurd that I don't go anymore...We used to say that the cars wern't this pretty when they raced at LeMans in 1962(...there abouts)-and THAT quip was made in the 1980s, mid 1980s...the cars that are restored to 100points for 2001 would not be accepted today...HOW DO YOU HAVE 4 100 point cars in 1 class? up until a couple of years ago, there had been 3(I think???) 100point Ferraris...EVER! For cars that LOOK wonderful-but you wouldn't dare drive it to LA....Beauty is only skin deep-but skin is all you see...so it seems...the most important place to spend gobs of money is where you can't see it!!! Inside the mechanicals-ITS A MACHINE.

One gains some significant credibility to these discussions if you've had to write checks to obtain the desired result...or,
and lastly, if you are a practitioner....
well, then you know the story....the real story...

there are WAY TOOOO many "opinions" on repair costs of d/f, f, 168, 128lm, 210, 211, AND 213s getting bandied about by assemblers as it is...
but mostly, by a majority of individuals who have not got the faintest idea of the time, effort and expenses involved in these undertakings...

People who own 355s, or 456s, or 575s need to remember that whie the cars share a name and a hood badge...the similarities for the most part, end there....especially with respect to manufacture, and materials.
"Back then", it was all hand made...today, its all CNC,with an emphasis on production manufacture, and NOT with much considertion for future maintenance...this was first noticed on 512TR models in 1992...
the cars were obviously being built with the idea that they were likely NOT going to be driven much,
and that any maintenance done,would be likely done out of the purview of warranty coverage...: "customer pay"...
The cements, gasketry, and ways in which the parts were machined...all tended to support this conclusion which was talked about quite noticeably at the time...
sort of a duality at the time, when dealing with the astounding turnkey street performance of the F-40-a remarkable street acheivement-for a car first delivered in 1987(50 units only).

In summation, these cars were for rich men back then...and are-for the most part-richer men today...
Sounds like a snotty thing to say...I'm not saying that the truth isn't ugly-it is,
usually.
DON"T EVER FORGET: FERRARI BUILT RACING CARS...he hated street cars, he hated the "public" that bought his street cars..
he did so ONLY to finance racing-specifically Formula 1..
GTracing was also just a money machine to fuel Formula 1.
ALL F1 pilots drove works GT cars and P cars because it was so important to win the money required to go F1 racing!

ADDITIONAL PERSPECTIVE: 275GTB 6/c cars cost LESS when NEW,than 330GTCs with p./w and a/c hard to imagine, but true...
most 275s sat on the showroom floor while the coupes were delivered as they arrived...
almost ALL readers are probably NOT OLD enough to remember the social mores of that era...just how politically incorrect buying a 275 would be-trust fund or not-it was considered a far too ostentatious display of wealth...remember, there is a reason that there are only a couple of hundred of them....this was before Woodstock and Men walking on the Moon .....I'm not sure, but JFK was still alive after the last series 1 GTO was built?

Lastly, and for the benefit of original poster-if castings are PERFECT(fantasy), the cylinder
liners DONT need to be extracted{after block heated to 160-180 degrees C, probable FANTASY}, block squared deck to centerline of crank,-requires studs removed(ARP rolled, head/block studs and main bearing saddle cap studs are 3500.00), if NO EDM required for broken studs(TOTAL FANTASY), assuming 24 new seats, 6mm valve stems with new springs, an NO decay of heads at parting surface{MoreFANTASY}...yes, its realistic to start at 50...how much higher is really a function of component condition, ability of and willingness of owner to spend such that machinists can effect permanent type repairs as oppossed to "fix it so I can sell the car"
REMEMBER: in MOST cases, despite knowing that the mechanic is cutting a corner, the machinist does what the mechanic specifies, as an earlier poster noted, the importance of machinists in this equation has been far too understated for far too long. Nearly EVERY machinist can assemble a 33o or 250 motor, almost no mechanic can machine the parts to assemble a 330 or 250 motor....think about it....

 

my machinist charged $7K, everything measured and to factory spec, including balancing. Oil pumps overhauled. Parts bill was $17K, every moving part renewed. $1K for new (correct) fasteners, plus plating. I did the painting. Cam regrind & hardening was around $1K. I removed, dismantled and reassembled it myself, I'd guess about 80 hours all up, so $8K of value.
Total $34K

note. crank was perfect, just polished. I didn't touch the carbies or distributors, these were done later.

 

It's not only HAVING the tools...I'm shocked how many "experts" don't know how to USE the tools.

I restore/repair old motorcycles for a living...when somebody asks me to measure components, I tell them to bring them in and I need to hang onto them for at least 24-48 hours. I put the components to be measured AND my measuring tools in my consistently heated office for at least a day. I wear knit gloves with nitrile palms so my body heat is not transferred to the components OR measuring tools. I measure everything multiple times.

My background is science/physics...I was fortunate enough to have some very good teachers who stressed technique when using tools.

 

This discussion reminds me of the old Russian joke:

Boris shows off his new Rolex to his friend, Igor. "You know, Igor, I paid $100k for this watch-- can you believe that?"

To which Igor replies, "Boris, you fool! There was a shop down the street which would have sold you the same watch for $200k!"

I think many vintage Ferrari owners take pride in how much they paid for their rebuild, and or restoration. They don't want to know if it could have been done for less money.

 

Wayne,

Thanks for bringing this conversation back to reality.


Two questions for everyone else:
1. If you made a batch of 10 250 GT engines, made from scratch, how much would the production run cost?

2. For those measuring things to the millionth: what level of precision was used when the engines were built back in the 50s and 60s?

Regards,

Art S.

 

right...then all you need is the equipment to do it.

we do ours on our Multi-Bal 5000...
and we're very happy with the results, whether we're doing a '67 Quattroporte 4.2, a '68 365 GT, a '71 Espada, a '74 Dino, a '77 GTB, a '75 365 GT4 , a '78 400, an '81 400i, a '91 Mondial t...or an '03 360.
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