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Adjustable Pulley pt2 a new belt design...

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by smg2, Jan 31, 2006.

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  1. Matt Morgan, "Kermit"

    Matt Morgan, "Kermit" Formula Junior

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    #51 Matt Morgan, "Kermit", Feb 5, 2006
    Ricardo, I hate to bring this up but...
    They do break. Especially when the belt is cold, and the tension isn't too tight yet. Hit second gear hard, and it will take the teeth off.
    FYI: They don't run any type of tensioner on HD's. FWIW, the belt is run a bit on the loose side cold, and it tightens up when it warms up. To tight (a common well intentioned DYI malady), and the excess tension will eventually break the belt, but not before it wreaks havok on the primary drive bearings due to tension overload.
    A bit off topic, but relative to belt life none the less. I would surmise the same thing would happen if one reset the tensioner after the belt had run in. The lower drive pulley bearings would really be pulled hard, with the normal load, and the added load of the belt tightening as it got hot. Bear in mind, the Cam drive belts see a lot more heat than a Motorcycle drive belt does.
     
  2. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

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    #52 Artvonne, Feb 8, 2006
    Scott, how is the program coming along, any news??
     
  3. smg2

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    #53 smg2, Feb 9, 2006
    waiting on some price quotes from gates, and a call back from thier engineering dept. hopefully soon ;)
     
  4. smg2

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    #54 smg2, Feb 9, 2006
    HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!! @#$%@%!@#%!#$%!@#%$

    Okay sit down everyone, i just got the quote back for the pulley stock.
    30tooth $770
    20tooth $714

    that's just the raw stock, it still needs to be cut and machined. the're 8" in length and will net 4 pieces per. so figure the stock would start the pulley set cost at $1127 before any machine time or hardware is added. way to freaking high.

    there is a tarnished silver lining though, one other shop can and will cut the stock for $250, however they are currently being sued by Gates for patent infringement. now how that would affect me i don't know. Gates informed me of this when thay asked as to who else would manufacture the stock. at this point i feel strongarmed by gates and i do not like it!

    i will call the other shop tommorow and see what excactly is going on. this is really starting to piss me off! i'm going for a drive....
     
  5. wildegroot

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    #55 wildegroot, Feb 9, 2006
     
  6. Artvonne

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    #56 Artvonne, Feb 9, 2006
     
  7. wildegroot

    wildegroot Formula 3
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    #57 wildegroot, Feb 9, 2006
     
  8. snj5

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    #58 snj5, Feb 9, 2006
    I would like to take a moment and again thank Scott for all of this difficult development work - there are a lot of speed bumps and his perseverence is amazing. If a new belt design or a vernier pully, we will all benefit from his good work.
    Ooh-rah/
    best
    russ
     
  9. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    #59 smg2, Feb 10, 2006
    alrighty light at the end of the tunnel and it's not a train....

    okay spoke with the machine shop cutting the pullies, apperantly 20yrs ago there was an issue with trademark usage. still a sore spot for gates.

    now onto the belt choices, i have two options here:
    HTD 3/8" pitch, Honda 1.5L belt 86~87
    Powergrip GT2 8mm pitch, Mitsu lancer evo belt 02~04

    the Powergrip GT2 is another move forward from the HTD profile, better material and longer life.

    the machine shop in illinos will have a quote for me come monday, if i want 6061 t-6 aluminum they can supply stock at $98 for the 30tooth and $53 at the 20tooth. now that is for the HTD profile. i'll see what the pricing is for the GT2. the cost will rise slightly for the 7075 also but not by much.

    going to napa later to see the belts in person, i'll take pics for reference against the stock belt.
     
  10. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    #60 smg2, Feb 10, 2006
    i would like to bring a few up to speed here, this solution to the timing belts has been a road filled with potholes and speedbumps. the level of frustraion and misscomunitcation exceeds anything i have ever seen on my jobsite. and i'm talking about big commercial projects.

    Gates has a seriuos flaw within thier company, not one person has clue as to what the other guy is saying and they use nomenclature to only beffudle and obfuse the conversation. a real pain in the ass, i have succeded in researching thier material thru internet searches and password log-ins they gave me only becouse they didn't understand each other and wished me luck.

    the rest of the belt indusrty absolutly hates gates and i'm bieng mild here, most i talked to consider gates a retarded child who went biking without a helmet. see gates has this odd way of naming thier profiels and generations. the powergrip gt and the gt2 share the same pulley but gates will tell you otherwise untill you dig into thier internal docs find out they are the same, they just updated the contruction of the belt.

    it's these issues that cause problems when trying to source belts and pullies. when i started this i figured it was a simple milling operation, but as we have found out it is not. alot of references i got turned out were purchasing the stock second hand, there are less than dozen machine shops who produce the stock. of those only two make them for the automotive application. i know of only one at the moment as the other is used by gates directly.

    i had to start with the engineering of our stock setup from there it was reversed to match up with the HTD and the GT2. then i needed to source a belt that would have the correct tooth count and width. seems simple untill you start to talk to the people in charge. the biggest issue was finding the machine shop who produces the stock for auto applications. here is something else, i'm one guy doing this from my garage. not a big company with millions in orders, to convince them to talk with me and help me with this project has been quite the P&R experience. getting the 'ol foot in the door was tough.

    so at this moment i think the effort is going to payoff, finally. the shop will get back to me on monday with cost on stock. as for the belts, let me state Gates makes good belts, it is the way they run the company that is the problem.

    i need a new hobby....
     
  11. smg2

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    #61 smg2, Feb 10, 2006
    a little light reading.
    http://www.gates.com/file_display_common.cfm?thispath=Gates%2Fdocuments_module&file=syncBeltOverview.pdf#search='modified%20curvilinear%203%20belt'
     
  12. smg2

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    #62 smg2, Feb 10, 2006
    Paul,
    my apologies, the HTD is not available inthe 8mm anylonger, must have been when you knew it. they moved over to the GT2 profile for the 8mm. when i read HTD in your post my reply was based on what is now available. so yes the 8mm GT2 is the better option however due to cutting and the difference in stock sizing going larger won't fit becouse i have to match an off the shelf belt. the mitsu belt has 121 teeth the next up is 201 too big for our use.
     
  13. smg2

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    #63 smg2, Feb 11, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    belts belts belts,
    i picked up the new powergrip GT2 belt the new pullies will be using. it's for a mitsu lancer 02-04. part #T201. i took some pics for comparison to the current 'L' belt we use. i'm going with the 8mm GT2 over the 9.525mmHTD for a few reasons. the HTD belt has larger than i expected teeth and this would cut into our usable space for the adjustment bolts. also the HTD has a bit of backlash better than the 'L' but still there. the GT2 has no backlash so expect spot on timing thruout the rev range. the GT2 8mm also nets us alot more teeth per pulley vs. 'L' & HTD so we will have no 'ratcheting' or tooth jumping.

    the physical dims on our current belt is 37.875" long and 25.4mm wide the GT2 belt is 38.125" long and 29mm wide. the slightly longer leangth is not a concern according to gates engineers as the tensioner takes up any slack, also the extra leangth comes from the increase in teeth.

    cost: the new belt is $45 but i got mine for $30 from the Napa store. i'm figuring the belt will vary in cost. the machine shop doing the stock can also purchase the belts in bulk if i so wanted, i'll see what the cost breaks out to.
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  14. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

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    #64 Artvonne, Feb 14, 2006
    So were you able to find a shop to make the pulleys?
     
  15. smg2

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    #65 smg2, Feb 14, 2006
    yes, i'm waiting on the price quote for the 8" stock in 7075 aluminum.
     
  16. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    #66 smg2, Feb 14, 2006
    Pricing is in!!!
    $250 for 8" of usable stock in 24 tooth 8mm GT2
    $275 for 8" of usable stock in 36 tooth 8mm GT2

    one 8" peice of stock will do one full set of cam pullies and the other 8" will do two sets of drive pullies.

    so for material cost on just the pullies we are at $400 + $210 for the inner pieces of the cam pullies = $610. macine time is the next cost and i have that quote at $690. this brings a grand total to $1300. i want to bring the cost down but that can only be done if i'm doing multiple orders otherwise these are the closest rough numbers i have.

    $1300. for adjustable GT2 profile cam/drive pullies. using the mitsu evo belt from gates.
     
  17. Artvonne

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    #67 Artvonne, Jul 31, 2006
    Okay, I have my pulleys. Scott sent em to me about 2 weeks ago. I was going to wait until the driving season was over to do an install, but a cam seal oil leak has reared its nasty oil dripping head and forced my hand. If I wanna drive it, looks like I hafta wrench on it. Enzo must really love me if he likes grease monkeys. I already have the seals and gaskets on hand, I just need some tensioner bearings, and am thinking I should replace the drive bearings as long as I have my fingers in it this deep. Anyone have the SKF # for that bearing??

    Scott, the belt I am going to need, is it for a Mitsubishi Evo? Any particular year? Is that all I need to ask for? Im gonna take it out for a spin one more time, because I want to back the car in the garage and I have to start it to turn it around, I might as well go eat up some road a lil before I tear back into it. Again.
     
  18. smg2

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    #68 smg2, Aug 1, 2006
    paul,
    NAPA #250201
    shop around as price can vary between $13~$45 per belt. go figure.
     
  19. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    #69 Verell, Aug 1, 2006
    I think you've got the bearings that are inboard of the oil seal, if so, they run in filtered oil, so ageing lubricant isn't an issue, just mileage. If you're pretty low mileage, may not be worth it, if 40k-50k plus, then go for it.

    Search the old fchat archives for 'cam drive' or 'timing drive' and 'bearings'. robertgarvin & I were changing ours at the same time. I know the 'large' QV bearings p/ns are there, & I believe that we listed the 'small' bearing p/ns as well.

    I assume you've read the posts about how to make the tool to pull the bearings, or the ones with the commercial bearing puller info.
     
  20. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

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    #70 Artvonne, Aug 3, 2006
    ??? I was under the impression all the drive bearings were the same. This one snuck up on me. Is there an easy way to tell which is which, and/or, at what year or engine # they switched?

    As for mileage, its got 45K on it, or so it reads. If I were selling the car I could not guarantee it, I mean, who could on a 30 year old car with no paper trail. But, Its probably about that. The bearings sounded very quiet and smooth with a stethoscope though.
     
  21. Artvonne

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    #71 Artvonne, Aug 3, 2006
    I bought a NAPA brand serpentine belt for about $45 for my 93 Ford Diesel truck. All it ever did was flip off every other time I shut it off. I put the old one back on and put the new one in the glove box for "just in case". Four years later and it hasnt come off yet. I would prefer to buy a actual Gates belt than anyones Named one. You have that #??
     
  22. smg2

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    #72 smg2, Aug 4, 2006
    napa belts are gates belts. says it right on the box, and if you call gates they'll tell you napa sells there belts as such. the t201 is gates number and the 250201 is the napa number -same belt-.
     
  23. Verell

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    #73 Verell, Aug 4, 2006
    There were 3 major variaents of the timing drive bearing system:

    GT4s & Carb'd cars:
    1) OUTSIDE SEAL: The oil seal was mounted just behind the drive gear, thus the bearing ran in engine oil in-board of the seal. The industry p/ns for the bearings is:

    Inner SKF 6201-J
    outer SKF 6203-2RS1/C4HT51


    2) INBOARD SEAL: The outer bearing is mounted against the cam drive gear, and the oil seal is mounted behind the bearing. There were two different outer bearings used:

    a) Late Carb'd cars, Injected Cars, & QVs used:

    I'm pretty sure that the 'outer seal' & these engines used the same bearings, but can't find where I posted it to the old Fchat. Best way would be to check the Ferrari p/ns on the Ferrari.uk site. Will try looking some more when I have some time available.

    b) A larger, non-std P/N outer bearing was used on very late '85 , and probably late '84 QVs, and all 328s. I have the p/n somewhere, but can't lay my hands on it.
     
  24. RGigante

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    #74 RGigante, Feb 8, 2012
    Verell,

    would you have the p/n for the 328 outer bearing ?
    Thanks!
     
  25. Steve Magnusson

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    #75 Steve Magnusson, Feb 8, 2012
    I realize that this is an older post, but, since it has part number information, I'd like to offer a clarification. The part number that Verell posted for the outer bearing (SKF 6203-2RS1/C4HT51) is only used for configuration #2a. The outer bearing for configuration #1 would be the same basic bearing size (SKF 6203), but would not have the ...2RS1...HT51 components as these are for the bearing seals and grease -- configuration #1 uses the engine oil for lubrication as Verell stated, but an "open" bearing design.
     
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