Vintage section Fake/Replica/Recreation/Rebody discussion

Two of the top five active threads deal with fakes, which the OP's insist on calling replicas. It happens again, and again, and again…

The "official" sponsor of the VINTAGE section ADVERTISES A FAKE in this same section. The contradiction, or oxymoron, or however you want to call it, is Biblical in its dimension. The best forum in the world for vintage Ferraris, sponsored by a destructor of vintage Ferraris.

I am disgusted:

By the continuing lack of a subforum to hide these obscenities from the real Vintage Ferrari enthusiasts.

By the presence of an "official" sponsor who peddles one of these crimes shamelessly and openly. Rob Lay must have needed the money reaaaaally badly. I would happily have paid double my Rossa subscription to get this crap out of here, but evidently the owners of this forum have very different standards.

And finally, by the jesuitic casuistry used by these disgusting fakers to justify buying or selling fake Ferraris.

I know what's coming. Ferrarichat? My ass! This is Fakechat.

 

Julio

This is important discussion for Vintage. The Sponsor has been very striaghtwordard as to what his car is and isn't. Even you as I recall sold a car that turned out to be only wanted for it's engine as a spare for a SWB (?) so discussing this and "outing" replica's is important.

Rob is running a Great Site that requires a LOT of effort and money and your statement:

"Rob Lay must have needed the money reaaaaally badly." is very offensive as well as silly.

Cheers

 

Irrelevant. I never said the sponsor was a liar or dishonest; he is perfectly honest in his fake peddling.

You are right, perhaps it is important, but it is also offensive. Many Fchatters, and myself, have just asked many, many times to PLEASE create a separate section for those interested in these things. No way.

You are also entirely right. My continuing presence and activity for many years, my bringing in of countless new European recruits, and my deep appreciation are patent and do not need repeating. This is the greatest of all the internet sites that I have ever visited.

That is no reason, particularly as a paying customer, for me to not criticize perhaps the one aspect of Fchat that I intensely dislike: The tolerance of ENDLESS fake discussions in the vintage section, and the acceptance of a sponsor that sells fakes (yes, I know, an honest sponsor who clearly stated it was a fake. Fine).

As to the wording of my statement, on second thought you are again right, it was poorly worded; I just wanted to sound sarcastic, not offensive. I apologize if offense is taken.

But I still think a seller of fakes should never be a sponsor. Not that my opinion has any weight to it; it's not my site.

Cheers,

 

Julio

THANK YOU! I absolutely and fully agree with you.

Marcel Massini

 

I agree in principal with what you say but won't that just create further arguments as to what should be in the vintage section and what should be in this sub replica section?

For example

250 GTO replica based on a Datsun 240Z obviously a replica not for the vintage section at all
250 GTO replica based in a 250GTE, still a vintage Ferrari with an appropriate chassis number under there, probably for this new suggested section?
365GTB/4 Daytona Spyder conversion is that excepted as a proper Ferrari or a replica for this new section. perhaps a bit more difficult and emotive?

I don't think anyone wants the vintage section to start Ferrarichat's own chassiche certification?

 

Vintage section should be confined to cars in their original/period configuration. Replicas/reproductions of any type should be segregated.

 

I just noticed this thread and thereby found the two "replica" threads referred to. Those threads have requests by users to move them to the "replica" section.

Just a couple of points then:

- please also use "!" when making requests for moderator action, I don't know about other mods, but I didn't see the requests, until I noticed the unusual thread title in this thread

- we actually don't have a "replica" section, we have the different Ferrari models/eras, General automotive and a few non-Ferrari manufacturer specific forums

So, I know the general intent is to get it out of Vintage, but help out a bit here. I'm struggling with where to put them. Should the Dino replica thread be moved to General Auto or Dino or General Ferrari? How about the other one. If it is based on a Ferrari chassis, should it be moved to Ferrari General or to General Auto (because it is no longer a "real" Ferrari). Maybe this says a Replica section should be created to solve all future "elephants" (the blind men and elephant story, no sarcasm intended, just that different users seem to emphasize different aspects of the gestalt)?

BTW - I don't see a problem with providing constructive feedback to Redline on how you perceive their offerings. A sponsor is entitled to make commercial posts or itemize their inventory in their area, but I presume they also want to know if they're doing something unintentionally disturbing to their potential customers.

 

Would this be an inappropriate time to mention the Karmen Ghia based 250 LM replica that I am building? I figure its got 4 of the 12 necessary cylinders...

Just kidding!

I am torn on this debate. However much I enjoy seeing the real deal on the greens of Amelia Island or Cavalino or one day Pebble beach, its still such a rare beast that when I do see the GTO replica in the DC area, its a chance to view a rare object none the less.

I understand the purist debate just in that when you start chastising current owners for not painting their cars back to the original color or such, it goes against the free will of that owner to do as he and his money pleases.

I don't condone the actions of the 250 harvesters but I can't stop them either. I guess you can stop them from posting here.

 

+1

 

Why not set up a totally separate and new website "www.replicachat.com" (or may be it already exists.....?)?

Marcel Massini

 

Personally I'm not offended by chat about replica's/recreations/homages, it's all interesting car stuff to read about. Great fun!

Life's too short to get upset by such things.

DG

 

Don't think that people are upset. It is about the wrong section.

Marcel Massini

 

Jim, excellent words

Replica's should have their own section BUT.....

Lets not be too harsh to Rob Lay, after all he has provided us with this excellent website which without hard work from people such as him, we simply wouldnt have. And then we would all be the poorer.

In this hobby there are fakes, it is a fact of life, and we all wish that fakes werent so prevalent, but they are. Further, I reckon that fakes are okay so long as they are open, hell most cars arent 100% original, and its all okay, just so long as "we" know they are fake, part fake, fake engine, fake body whatever. Just so long as there is no hiding what it is, no-one gets hurt. Further, on the subject of fakes, when there is no survivors of a run, or at least none that can be used in anger, such as Lancia D50 et al, I would think an accurate fake is of value.

My 2 cents

 

Could there be a subsection for replicas, similar to the sponsor subsection?

 

Or like the 156 Chris Rea had built. That's not a fake, it's a recreation. We 'all' know what it is.

A fake is something purporting to be something it is not. A replica is known. They are the 'same', but different depending on the point of reference of the viewer (knowledge).

 

Yeah I suppose you are right on that one Marcel, maybe 'vintage section' is not best for contributions regarding replica's etc.

DG

(Its still makes good reading though...)

 

A subforum would be appropriate. Calling Vintage forum a "DISGRACE" is not. It demeans the many people who make valuable contributions here, and I include the original poster's own valued input, which I always enjoy reading. I think we can all distinguish between the authentic cars and the replicas/reproductions/tributes/reimaginings/etc. with the assistance of our resident experts.


I suggest we allow the owner and mods to work out a solution, and presumably they will ask for subscribers' input. It would be a good first step if they would make a comittment that it will be done, because the issue has been raised many times.

Jack

 

Amazing how many reactions come in in only 4 hours and 3 minutes, no fewer than 17 posts. Goes to show that the original poster was absolutely right.

Marcel Massini

 

I see that GE is advertising to lobby for congress to increase production of electric wind mills -- on FOX NEWS.

That's like PETA wanting to promote itself on a McDonald's Chicken McNugget Happy Meal box.

Whatever pays the bills. I think people can sort out fake from original.

 

Just for my understanding: a genuine 250 GTE that has been butchered to be made into a SWB California or even a GTO, doesn't stop being a real Ferrari, does it? I mean, I hate it when people do that to our beloved GTE's, but strictly speaking, these cars are still Ferrari's. That they will never have a place on the lawn at Pebble Beach or Villa d'Este doesn't mean they can't be discussed in the Vintage-section, does it?

 

Another real example, which apparently wasn't counted in the original "2 out of 5" categorization of fakes. Should this thread be moved to the better grade replica section (currently non-existent) vs trashy replica section (i.e. General Auto)? If not, why not?

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=309611

 

My vote would be to get rid of the replica postings. I think Enzo would agree.

 

Get rid of Fakes? YES PLEASE.
Get rid of Replica's/recreations? NO WAY.

If the car is based on a genuine chassis, suspension, engine etc, then it's still a Ferrari, regardless of who's shirt it wears.

If its a Datsun, Toyota, Pontiac or anything else beneath a plastic body wearing more ferrari badges than you can wave a stick at, then impound and crush it.

As for a separate section on the forum for Replicas and recreations as defined above...isnt that Ferrari apartheid?

 

Despite certain reservations I largely agree with Marcel and Julio's viewpoint. I would include some badly researched and fallacious 'restorations' which have established something of an unknowing fan base here.

DCN

 

What would a Daytona cut to be a Spyder be? It's not a "real" spyder, but it's a real Daytona. Should it be called a Daytona Fake Spyder? 365 GTB"F"S/4?

I don't know. I don't own a vintage Ferrari, so it doesn't bother me...but perhaps a "recreation" subsection would be appropriate for cars built on Ferrari donors?

Now if someone posts a Fiero in the 308 section, that is just WRONG!!!!