I agree to a point, as qualifying is the first time that all the cars will run at the exact same time with almost the exact same fuel loads on board. However, the practice sessions are the first time that all the cars must run to the exact regulations of scrutineering and the first practice sessions of the season are when the teams need to find out how their cars run and react on the varying fuel loads. In this respect it's reasonably easy to work out who has genuine speed over the three sessions and who are just plain slow as the teams sooner or later need to do runs on low fuel to get some sort of idea what the car will be like for qualifying. Put it this way: If your badly off the pace over all three practice sessions prior to qualifying- chances are the car just isn't fast! (or you're incredibly confident about your real pace and can afford to continue sandbagging until the last minute [and I seriously doubt any team has that sort of confidence these days!]).
You have a point to a degree, but I'd query how "much of the job was done already" by Massa. Massa set the car up how he wanted it and then Alonso had to set the car up how he wanted it. Also, don't forget that Alonso had to put up with more reliability issues that disrupted his running than Massa did. As I've said in My previous post, we won't know the real pace of anyone until the first practice sessions in Australia (and especially in the first qualifying sessions ). but I'd be surprised if Massa was the faster out of the two Scuderia pilots!
He is not paid to be. The real trouble is when he is faster than Alonso ala Massa vs Kimi. We will not see a faster Phil. Period. Scuderia Alonso is not set up that way. If Massa is faster just replay a radio transmission from Germany. This is not rocket science. Ideally he should be faster than the rest of the field. That has not happend either. Hence unless he is this year, I know and we all know he will be let go. Thats not rocket science either
In testing there is no team orders so Massa has his chance to show his abilities, thus I disagree with DF1, ie: That is just for the races. We have not started racing yet. You guys also need to remember testing is not about topping the time sheets, its about learning about the car and making it faster. Sometimes they will just pick a couple of corners to play with setup and then roll out of the throttle for the rest of the lap, etc. So until qualifying happens at Australia we won't really know the real performance of any car. Pete
Give me a break. If Massa finished just behind Alonso every time, you could make this argument. But the guy is consistently 5 positions back in EVERY session. I mean -- every session throughout the weekend. Ferrari wants to win the Construction championship way more than the driver's. For them to to want to sabotage Massa just to make Alonso look better is silly. I'm so tired of hearing this baloney. Everyone on the team needs to step up -- including Massa.
There is no question that Alonso is the better of the two. But there are drivers closer in skill to him than Massa is. The only reason for keeping him would seem to be Alonso's desire to remain unthreatened.
I disagree that Ferrari wants to win the WCC more than the WDC, and believe the way they handled MS and his "blockers" proved this. Remember Ferrari existed before there was even a WCC, plus they are never short of money ... not in recent times anyway and the only thing you gain from the WCC is money. Remember also they did not include their 1982 win of the WCC when they talked about their 21 year drought. Note also that the 1999 WCC win was not enough and real celebrations started in 2000 when they finally won the WDC again. Plus surely the fact that Massa is still sitting in the number 2 car again reinforces that Ferrari (maybe the only team) focuses on the WDC over the WCC. But lets not have this argument again ... I'm happy to be the only person that see's this . Pete
the way i've always understood it, is the constructor's title is more vauable to teams, in terms of sponsors, etc, etc.......the driver's title is great, but secondary to the constructors
Well I'll just agree to disagree, and leave it there. We've had this discussion before and most agree with you, but I seriously don't think Ferrari play that came. Again they ignore the 1982 WCC completely, and their last championship was 1979 ... before MS of course. Remember also Ferrari hardly needs to attract sponsors by winning anything. I personally view the WCC very much as the consolation price, and the car that won to me is the car the WDC drove. It's definitely easier to win the WCC. Anyway nothing will change my view, and I assume nothing will change yours . Pete
Agree, but people remember which car the WDC was driving as we know it is 95% car. Thus Ferrari gets more press, more prestege from building the car that the WDC drove to his win than the mere WCC. We don't even need the WCC IMO. Money should go to the teams based on WDC finishing order. Anyway, wasting a good thread ... BUT Massa is still there as he can block and help Alonso win the all important WDC. Pete ps: I for one could just about list all WDC winners and their cars since 1950, but there is no way in heck I could do that for the WCC ... just could not give a toss to me as a F1 fan.
not so much my view, just what i've understood from what i've read or heard in past .....so my remark was more question then a statment really
I didnt imply anything about him being superior to FA. He will probably be let go even if he finished runner up. I dont think I stated anything too radical here to be called out. Thus Im not giving you a 'break'. Its just f1 and my little opinion. He is not doing a good job and overall his job is not to be faster nor is he by nature. Sorry if I offended anyone here at all.
The Drivers World Championship carries more prestige as it's the title that the general public recognizes and the teams know that if their driver wins the WDC then it will always come with "Driving a [ insert team car here ]" in all the news articles. Think about it, at the end of the season, do all the news networks highlight the WDC or the WCC? Take 1999 When Mika Häkkinen won his 2nd WDC , was Ferrari winning the WCC the bigger story? -No! it wasn't, the stories were all about the WDC. As I've always seen it, the teams push to win the WDC first and then hope to get the WCC as well, almost as a bonus prize (or a consolation prize if they failed to win the WDC). Yes the team personnel get great satisfaction in knowing that they won the WCC, but the WDC gets them much more worldwide recognition of having won a Championship. Ah!, a kindred spirit! Yet again your wisdom comes shining through a·midst a sea of the unenlightened!
Yeah, I have to agree with this. The driver gets publicity hand over fist which is amazing for the brand, and really makes it a brand if it never was before.
While I agree with your statements, for Ferrari a WCC actually does carry weight: Yes, the WDC is the primary goal and a WCC a consolation prize of sorts, but they do cherish them as well. Case in point the 1999 title you mention: Ferrari went on to make little commemorative plaques, which they put on the interior of some of their cars with the 1999 title. A WDC goes further marketingwise, but short of it, any team (and in particular a road car manufacturer) does take a WCC and hangs it on its flag. Win Sunday, sell Monday. Still true as it was 60 years ago. PS: The reverse is true too: People are starting to question why Mercedes is in F1. They're known for their quality cars but they seem unable to build a fast race car.
I still don't see the need for the WCC, but I'm repeating myself . Winning the WCC does not imply your car is better than the rest of the field unless you also won the WDC. As the best team attracts the best drivers, why is the best driver not in your team in the first place? What does he know that we don't, etc?, and as he obviously obtained more points he did the right thing by not coming to the WCC team. Pete
