430 Scud or 458?

Well said. +1

 

Get the 458 without a doubt! That's like asking should I get the Ipad 2 or Ipad 3, if you have the means, go for it! Not that the 430 Scud is any less, its just the 458 is more styling, more power, more head turns for relatively alil more.

 

You could listen to the guy above who is shopping/comparing ipads? or you could buy a scud save 100k, get a better car for the track which is what you mentioned you wanted to do with it? Get a car with better brakes, much lighter which leads to a better connection between driver and the road , a better transmission (many users reporting transmission problems especially when 458 has been tracked) and way way more Carbon in the Scud, a car can never have enough Carbon. Plus you get a car which is more limited.

In regards to looks hmm that is subjective, while I agree the rear end of the 458 is hot the front end is still hmm interesting. Both nice cars but for track use it's very clear the Scud is the better car going at this time.

Read F430GT posts he offers great information.

 

Interesting how some people are comparing iPads to Ferrari's although I understand his point. My verdict is clear: 430 Scuderia anyday over the 458.

 

My own views - having owned the 612,599, California and the 458 and having extensively driven the scud and the challenge stradale, my overwhelming favorite is the 458.

The scud and the 458 are completely different cars with different purposes. Not particularly productive to compare them generically. I personally would not buy a scud, it's not my type of car.

To each his own. No real right or wrong answers.

612scag

 

Price really should not be part of the subject here. If that were the case, everyone would be buying a Lotus for better handling or a Nissan GTR or Vette ZR1 for better straight line speed.

And, certainly the Scud or the 458 make zero sense price-wise when compared to Porsche. I could say "save a lot of money and don't buy a Scud but get a Porsche" also, but again that has nothing to do with what we like.

It's not a question of money. It's a question of what you want for your money.

Yes, the Scud is more limited. And it has a more limited market too. As I said earlier, if the Scud were better than the 458, they would not sell any 458's. The market always reflects the true value of anything -- gold, oil, bananas, and Scuds.

I'm still not sure why Scud people have this "458 envy". The 458 is just a better all around car. It's not track focused because 99.99999% of all Ferrari miles are never on the track. This is some kind of crime?

I have a suggestion for Scud owners: You wanna save a ton of money and have a better track car? Buy a Caterham or Ariel Atom.

For me, and a lot of people, the decision between the F430 and 458 for use on city streets is pretty clear: 458 anyday.

On the track? I'd pick the Atom anyday over the Scud. But I'm one who doesn't care if the car doesn't have pretty shields on the sides when it heads into Turn 6.

 

+1 and could not agree with you more. Many refer to their track cars as "track rats." I personally would not want a Ferrari track rat, I would rather go for a cheaper track rat and much more polished but still fast and stunningly entertaining car like a 458 road car. But I am very respectful of the fact that others may have a very different opinion. I admire those that race or track their Ferraris on a regular basis.

 

What you say is partially true. It should DEFINATELY not be only about money as Ferrari is an emotional purchase and an aspirational one swell. I do not own a SCUD but am thinking of buying one. Money plays no role in my decision what so ever. What plays a role is that I want a pure Ferrari experience and I want a car that is not seen at every street corner. The 458 is a nice car but not very exclusive. That is a fact. And I like to have things not everyone has even if the product is perfect. There in lies the brilliance of the Scuderia. Exclusive. Powerful. Pure. Ferrari. Answer: Scuderia

 

Everyone makes some great points, with that said sorry I still don't see how the 458 is way better car, I certainly have no 458 envy as the car I bought was priced higher than 458, in other words I could have bought the 458.

It seems as buyers we all have different dynamics we expect from a car, and it's a good thing Ferrari caters to all of us with different cars.

Lets be honest guys, when it comes to Ferrari's it's all about performance and the way it feels when driving, discrediting brakes,transmission and weight and saying it's only for the track user is kind of silly when talking about Ferrari's. With that said its kind of silly buying a car like a 458 for street only use? Like whats the point, when/how can you take advantage of the speed safely on city streets?

 

Amen brother, and thanks to the over produced 458, the scud's are going for a great price. I love how 458 users only wish their tranny felt like a Scud and 458 users saying we Scud guys have 458 envy? Hahah sure.

 

Amen brother back

 

Now, if you want to start a real spirited argument, one could say a Lamborghini Aventador LP700 is a way better car than either the Scud or the 458 on the street and on the track!!! and for a barely $100K more! But that will be "off topic"

 

Hmm please explain how you come to that conclusion? the Scud has better brakes, a better transmission, better suspension, plus the Scud comes decked out to the nine in carbon which clearly seems to be a favorite with all 458 users since the options from Carbon on 458 seem to be a healthy choice for buyers spec'ing 458.

Both cars are amazing, I just can't agree with you saying 458 is better without anything to back it up, just because it is newer it is better? The scud has proven to be a very reliable car, and reliability should be a huge part in calling a car better than another car, the 458 has had some well documented issues mostly notably the transmission which is on it's 3rd change already??

 

Or the MPC4-12!

It has nothing to do with "what's better" except what you want.

Some people look at Picasso and think it's genius. Others look at it and say it's just a bunch of mixed up images in a painting.

Both are actually 100% correct.

 

Btw I am not sure I agree with you. To say that the market always the true value of anything is not very accurate. At any given day the market will tell you the prices, yes, but often the market is wrong taking a long term view. Nasdaq in 2000? S&P 500 in March 2009? Oil prices in 2008? Greek debt in 2000 when they joined the EURO? Greek debt now ? What I am saying is I will make the following bet: a Scuderia will hold their value better than a 458 when you compare depreciation timeline. Lets wait another 18months and see the prices of Scuderia versus 458...!

 

Better in terms of what? Pure lap time? Maybe. But driving experience? No offense but watch the Youtube video by Top Gear. These cars should be about drama, theatre, brutality, emotion. The 458 and Aventador are missing that. The scuderia has that!

 

You call the Scuderia exclusive? More than a 458, yes, but it is still just a run-of-the-mill machine in the Ferrari world. Over 2,500 produced (including 16M) if I'm not mistaken. I see them all the time, and in fact, hardly less than the 458. They're great, but exclusive they ain't. Just look at current prices.

Onno

 

Why? That is just your opinion. Others do not agree. Why is that so hard to accept? Should we never have had the 360 Modena, only the CS? Never the 430, only the Scud & 16M? Should every Ferrari always be a limited edition model (making it as expensive as a Zonda)?

I love the Scud but prefer the 458. I want to take my car on a 800 mile drive on 1 day, as I do on many occasions. 458 is much preferable to a Scud for that purpose. If I want drama, theatre, brutality and emotion, I hop into my 365 Boxer.


Onno

 

Onno, they are exclusive if you compare it to the 458 Italia. They will end up making more than 20'000 of these. Scuderia make one tenth. That is relative exclusivity.

 

Onno that is why people buy Ferrari. Else your better off with an FF or even better a California. But we are comparing high performance sports cars here, the 458 and the Scuderia. Thats a fair comparison for now. And the Scuderia wins. Is that so hard for you to accept?

 

Yes. I want Ferrari to go back to their Enzo days (1950-1960's) of exclusiveness. I would LOVE that. But it is not going to happen. So I have to play the cards I am dealt with. Scuderia is the glove that fits the best.

 

Better brakes? No. The Gen 3 CCB's are much, much better in everyday use. They stop better, have better feel, and don't grab at low speeds.

Better gearbox? No. The best thing about the 458 is the new gearbox.

Better suspension: Not even close.

More reliable? You're joking here, right? Have you gone back and looked at F430 posts about blow engines, F1 failures, header failures, check light problems, etc -- not to mention needing a clutch every 20 K miles.

As to the "I've had 3 gearboxes!" stuff--- yah, one guy. That's your source of information? People don't post on Fchat "I drove my car today and my gearbox worked fine". Did they have early problems? Yes. Care to look at three years of header problems on F430's?

Look, I've driven both. Don't try to tell me which is better for everyday driving. I don't need you to tell me what I like. And, the people who EVERY DAY chose to buy a 458 over a Scud don't either.

There's nothing wrong with the Scud. It's a great car and if you want to track a Ferrari (why you would is beyond me but that's your choice) or a more "raw" experience, then it's the most perfect F car for that task.

For driving on city streets at or near the acceptable speed limits: The 458 is definitely the car most like best.

I fail to see how this can be argued because it's not me saying it -- it's the buying public. When people vote with their pocketbooks, the 458 wins. That's about as concrete an explanation as anyone can give.

So, let's stop comparing apple and oranges and lets start comparing what we WANT out of a car. It's not the car's fault they are what they are -- it's what people want to do with them.

 

You think the Scuderia is best. That is fine. I think it is one-dimensional thinking. There is a reason I own 4 Ferraris. There is also a reason I'm picking up my 458 this month, and I do not own a Scud. Would like to, but it would be number 15, 16, 17 in my list. It would rank below a CS. I think that car has much more drama.

So - the 458 is quicker, the CS has more drama. What is left for the Scud once the 458 Scud comes out? A straight plummet in value, I would say.

And - the 458 is not a high performance sportscar. It is a high performance sports GT.


Onno

 

I would respectfully disagree with you that the Aventador is really missing anything compared to a Scud. The Aventador is faster, more powerful, better looking and FAR MORE BRUTAL than a Scud to drive with a significantly higher level of "drama" when driving it to the grocery store or on the track. The new F12 with 40 more horses still cannot match the Aventador's performance... Let's not get too off topic. To me the most damning eveidence against the Scud is that it is a "last generation car." No, newer is not always better. But Ferrari themsleves replaced the racing platform from the 430 Scud to 458 in Le Mans/American Le Mans series and the Daytona Rolex series because it is a better platform to develop from. A Scud to 458 comparison is apples to oranges. Wait until the 458 Challenege or Scud version comes out and the superiority of the 458 platform for performance development will be obvious. Unfortunately, that will not be for another few years... Again, I am not looking to be argumentative, just debating merits/demerits and different points of view.

 

Hear, hear!


Onno