Clutch Wear Theory - F1 F430

The mechanic (not at the place of sale/independent and over 25 years exp.) did hear a small ratteling noise coming from the rear/gearbox (at low rpm, before exhaust valves opens) in every gear. Was wondering what it could be.
Also I followed instructions by Trent (many thx for tips) to shift continuously during 20min drive. Did not miss a hartbeat.
Also opened/clossed cap 10 times and all was fine, mechanic told me also to check both hooks of the top to grip at same moment. If not start looking for replaced pannels all around.
Right rear light-bracket is broken. 16.000 miles service is up.
Monday I call agent of Ferrari to check manifold is replaced under warrenty...

 

Fred. You have an electronic issue not a mechanical one.

a. Hydraulic systems are positive pressure systems, they can not pull a vacuum by definition. Negative pressure is a vacuum.
b. If your voltage was really 3.6v the SDx would not be able to talk with the TCU or ECU. But this is a clue I agree.
c. The incorrect RPM reading is also a clue, and impossible mechanically if you observe the engine running.

I recommend starting with the electrical harnesses, sounds like a low voltage could be causing erroneous readings, but the system will probably act strange between 5 and 9volts, and will probably not respond to SDx or OBD2 at below 5v. So check the voltage at the ECU pins and clean any harnesses you suspect.

I assume you have reset the main switch under the front hood? Basically rebooting the car? If not there is a thread with the procedure, please search for it.

Since you have not purchased the vehicle yet, it might be best to walk away because electrical gremlins can be a b%$^ to diagnose. Please take the time to read the DiscoInferno thread on his electrical nightmare. http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=323831

 

You are correct that many people are spreading myths about auto-mode, but I am afraid you are just as guilty my friend.

Instead of citing methods of clutch slip from third party documentation, try driving a F430 F1. *Please note the thread is titled 430, not 360.

Question: Is the wear the same for Auto mode ON Vs OFF during normal driving on a $30 F1?

*I own a 2006 F430 F1 Spider. The software for the Scuderia, 360, 360 CS and other model years may vary.

Facts:
1. In auto mode the slip is greater than in manual mode during acceleration.
Test1:
a. Put the F1 selector in Race (or whatever mode and leave it there, I used Race and Sport with the same results, Race is just more aggressive). Use even acceleration for all testing, even being a moderate use of throttle like you were driving normally.

b. Select Manual mode and drive from 0 - 60 shifting from 1-2-3-4

c. Select Auto mode and drive from 0-60 letting the computer shift 1-2-3-4
Result Test 1: The shift time for Auto mode is much longer, 2 to 3 times longer depending on gear and throttle %. The Slipping can be felt in auto mode by a 4 year old. The wear is clearly higher and maybe more importantly it feels like a poorly engineered automatic transmission with torque converters. In manual mode the shifts are quick and solid. Less slip equals less wear.

2. In auto mode the slip is greater than in manual mode during acceleration.
Test2:
a. Start at 45-50mph in 3-4th gear and approach a stop sign light you might do in a standard commute.

b. Put the selector in Sport or Race, I normally use Race, but tested in sport with the same results

c. Select Manual mode. Start to gradually decelerate to a complete stop letting the computer downshift (manual mode downshifts). The computer will select lower gears but will not engage the clutch, letting the car roll or coast to a stop. The currently selected gear is quite useful if you need to re-accelerate. If you do need to reaccelerate the computer will engage the clutch is ~50-100mS because the appropriate gear is already selected, just the clutch is not engaged.
RESULT: This results in zero clutch wear during the entire deceleration in manual mode. The clutch will not reengage until throttle is applied.

d. Select Auto mode. Start to gradually decelerate to a complete stop letting the computer downshift (auto mode downshifts). You will notice the computer selects approximately the same gears at the same time during deceleration, but the big difference is that in Auto mode the computer engages the clutch every gear on the way to a complete stop resulting in no coasting but instead a sloppy engagement of the clutch with long "lazy" shift durations in the 500mS range.
RESULT: This clearly wears on the clutch more than the manual mode equivalent stop. If I was instructing a manual transmission driver, I would scold them for this activity.

e. Extra Credit: What if you manually downshift in manual mode or auto mode during the same stop procedure? The results are similar to (d.) except the shift time is greatly reduced, and the sloppy shifts are replaced with fast and crisp shifts.

Please do not comment on this unless you actually own a 430 F1 and have actually driven it in Auto mode and Manual mode back to back.

My 430 always starts in the last used mode, not Auto mode. Yes I have heard some vehicles always start in auto mode, I have never seen one of these models.

I agree, good point.

I disagree due to my testing as mentioned above.

 

Thx, reading...

 

You dont really need to read the entire thread, the point is; would you have wanted that car? All is well that ends well, but I would go for a call that is healthy, unless the purchase price is adjusted appropriately for the risk.

 

Wow, great analysis. Best I've seen on this subject. Thanks for going through all this effort.

Dealer presentation on different F1 boxes from Street to Race over the years (355 to F430 Scud) last year.

BTW: I think they changed to Auto mode as default in 2007. For sure, it was 2008. All Italia's start in Auto mode also.
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I think you are correct. Test drive in 2008 F430: starts in auto mode automatically.

@ Trent,
Price is high end of market. However beautifull mix of colours and options. Not easy to find (searching for 1 year).
Also we in Holland have insane added tax on cars and pool of F cars (only 16milj people live here and don't drive all ferrari's as this youtube shows http://youtu.be/FNJhCwp-UU0) is limited...

The car:
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Woah there! Why do you think he has an electrical issue? A voltage issue would have triggered alarm bells everywhere...he's shown pictures featuring a non-genuine tester with an unknown software level...hardly an electrical nightmare....
If the car drives well, buy it...if it needs a clutch or you think it needs a clutch use it as a leverage point during the purchase...simple!

 

How do you explain the tester is working fine on the other F430 we tested? The tester is working fine, car reads are of. Why? Jump starter used in the past? Battery change? or (worst case) someone is trying to....

@ Trent,
Read the compleet thread of DiscoInferno. 5 months living and no driving a F after spending $$$$....How did he survive/sleep at night? Respect!
I drive F for 7 years and it did not break down ones in 50.000km's. Spend minimum time (max 3 days in a row every year) at the shop for maintenance. Also after winter (3months asleep) it starts crisp and clear.

Best Ferrari = one that makes you every time (even when the bill is dropped ).

 

Yes walk or run away. That is my professional opinion. My profession is electrical and software engineering. *Disclaimer: I am NOT a ferrari mechanic. I am not certified on any vehicle, and I dont know what ASE stands for. If you need help on an atypical, esoteric issue with any electromechanical machine, I might be your guy.

He did state that the SDx worked on another 430 fine (but still could be an SDx issue, could be different 430 software, we dont know)

Electrical gremlins are sometimes extremely hard to troubleshoot. We are not talking about a known issue with a quantitive resource estimate to diagnose and repair.

 

Just spoke to the celling dealer (not Ferrari) and told him this car has an issue. He was not amused and want to talk to the engineer himself tomorrow. I will let you know the result.

Also Manifold is not replaced on this car, but also not (yet) leaking. As I understand it only can be replaced under warrenty when car is (official) ferrari dealer maintenanced and buying additional power warrenty. Is this true?

Does the manifold needs to be replaced always/when not leaking still replacement is needed?

Fred

 

Manifold replacement is not a mandatory campaign. If it is leaking FNA will replace up to the legal 8 year emissions warranty period. Note the 8 year emissions warranty is for the USA (federal law). I am not sure how F is handling in other parts of the world. I have read at least one European owner that had to pay out of pocket, I do not recall their handle here, or country.

 

Pump activation counter varies wildly var to car. It's not a particularly important parameter. Clutch wear solenoid leakage system pressure and statistical errors stored are far better pointers to the health of the F1 system. I don't think there is anything there for you to worry about.

 

The symptoms given of the OBD system giving bogus readings are not likely symptoms of actual problems with this vehicle. The diagnostic system requires files in the tester to interpret the serial data information stream into human readable data.

What appears to be the case here is that the tester is not set up for the 2008 vehicle - but is setup correctly for the 2006. Ferrari must have made some changes to the messaging between those two years (not uncommon or a big deal).

If there was one data parameter showing problems, or related items it would be one thing, but in this case with crazy readings from totally unrelated things (and even more significantly impossible negative readings) - it seems quite clear the problem is in the cal file in the tester.

Disclaimer - former automotive engineer on serial data, architecture, vehicle dynamics and chassis controls... ok, a lot of time was in managing... but I wasn't "that guy"!

I wouldn't put any stock at all into the info from that tester at all, and would look to other means (or ask the operator to re-do it) to evaluate the vehicle.

 

Hopefully the dealer has the correct file to read the 2008 vehicle information for you - since that car looks really nice ! and has taken you so long to find. I wouldn't get discouraged about this car at all yet - there is probably nothing wrong with it.

Hopefully you get a more experienced tech to work with in the future - guys that see garbage on the screen and don't figure it out themselves won't be much use if there really is a problem !

I notice he didn't put a vin into the tester system - sometimes that is how they check the year and make sure the data interpretation is correct...

 

Fred, the pump brings the system up to an upper pressure threshold and then cuts out until the pressure falls below the lower pressure threshold. Hence the number of pump activations would be expected to be significantly lower than the total number of gear changes.

 

I'd go with Trent's sage advice. The 430 is an inherently electronic car and he understands those nuances better than anyone I've met.

 

The risk in the picture is a dealer that doesn't know what he is doing - not the car as far as we know - IMO.

 

Point made, will pass it on at right time. Tomorrow we will know more (hopefully).

@ FerrariDubin,
Thx for the info. It's cristal clear to me now.

@ radix,
Think you are right. Celler didn't know about manifolds, brackets rearlights ect.

 

I will agree that you should get a second opinion from a "real" SD3. I also agree the messaging might be different between different years. Without new information I stand by my opinion to walk, but if a real SD3 says everything is normal than you have my thumbs-up if all else is in order.

 

There is nothing in those figures to make you walk from that car. There were no statistical errors, just a couple of random meaningless figures. Just updating the software can create meaningless figures. There were 4 updates to 430 software that i am aware of......
As for the pump times, these also varied wildly, the pump also runs the e-diff, so if the guy is driving the wheels off the thing the pump will run more. If it has the earlier F1 pump (there are 2 types) again, the pump will run more. Pumps should cycle every 2-3 changes but again, this can change dependant on software level. This is how easy it is to "see" a fault that isn't there!

 

I agree it is the best/easy way to find out whats going on. I will propose it to the seller (which did not return my call today) to "hook it on" at one of the dealers we have here.
Hopefully it will show the correct readings...

 

Trent, thanks so much for this detailed insight. Does any of this apply to DCT transmissions in 458s and Californias? What are best practices for these, like, is it better to keep transmission engaged while waiting at a stoplight, or to put into neutral?

 

Great question, but I would be a hypocrite to try and answer the question because I do not own a 458 and have never driven one.

I will say it is a different transmission all together and likely the tips-and-tricks are different. The dual clutch systems are actually a misleading name, they are more correctly a two transmission system in one casing. Each transmission has its own clutch and either operates the even or odd gears respectively. This allows for very smooth shifting and minimal clutch wear. It also allows pre-selection of the next gear, and overlapping clutch actuations. With a light foot I would not be surprised if these clutches last 50-60K miles, maybe more (all speculation).

 

Hi Guys!

Yesterday was a great day! Sorry for mis-using this thread but everyone who helped me out is reading in this thread.
I listen to all your input and acted on that to prevent $$$ disaster.

Long story short: The 2008 F430 (black) spider did not make it as successor of the 328GTS I had for 53.000km (=33.000 miles).
The (clutch) misreadings in the board computer and overal condition of the car was not the right value for money. Also Manifolds were never changed. If (big IF) the car was up for power warrenty I would pay extra for this as the black spider was for sale at a normal (audi) dealer. Add the risk when the manifolds would break after warrenty period I was up to pay again.....
So me and girlfriend had a meeting last week and yesterday at the Ferrari dealers (only 2 here in Holland) to check-out the stock. Both had cars but only one of them (formerly known as Kroymans, the dealer who lost his original 250GTO when the dealer went bust 3 years ago....) had a new (5000km = 3000 miles ) car. Same asking price as the black spider of 2008 (11.000 miles and misreadings in board computer).
This Scuderia red had a lot of options and 2 years of warrenty. However same story: the manifolds could break after 2 years. The dealer has given (writen) life long warrenty on the manifolds....A deal maker

So thanks a lot of all your input and when comming to Holland sent a PM to have a meet & greet.

Pictures & (testdrive)movie of a happy guy + girlvriend who could not drive in the 328 due to leg space but now can! Is already used to the F1 gearbox

http://youtu.be/Q7VuSKuBSRI
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