Proper way to drive a F1 transmission?

I know this was spoken about in past posts, but I can't seem to find them now. I have a few questions about the proper use of the F1 transmission. When in manual mode, can you leave it in 1st gear when stopped at a light, or is it best to put in neutral? If it is anything like a stick shift, leaving it in gear will ruin the throw out bearing prematurely. Also is this transmission designed to up shift or down shift to save the engine if the operator does something wrong. For example, if they don't downshift when slowing down, will the gears down shift by themselves or will it stay in the higher gear, then bog down when you try to accelerate? Will it over rev the engine if you try to downshift too much? What I'm essentially asking is, is it EXACTLY like a manual transmission, or are there overrides for mistakes?
Thanks

 

How about in the thread about F1 clutch wear about six down from this for starters ?

Then why not download & read the manual for the car you are looking for here : http://www.ferraridatabase.com/The_Downloads/Manuals_Owners.htm

 

It's like a manual but it downshifts for u if u slow down enough. But in not sure if it up shifts I don't wanna try it on my car. Lol. Its a good transmission IMO. U can have a lot if fun, best part is shifting on redline and hearing your exhaust echoing from your surroundings. And aftermarket Exhaust is a must. It's probably one of the best feeling and satisfaction one can get from driving a car. Just my $.02. Enjoy

 

These topics have been discussed many times over many years on this site (and others) so you should have no trouble finding multiple answers (although not always the same) to all your questions. The search function is your friend on this. The factory users manual covers everything you’re asking in considerable detail as well. If you haven’t studied your users manual, you’re heading for lots of trouble.

The short version would be as follows:

There is no difference to the Ferrari F1 transmission between standing still in neutral or in gear. The F1 gearbox uses a constant contact throwout bearing (i.e., always spinning) and the clutch is fully withdrawn in either case. Some claim the clutch can drag against the flywheel standing still in gear but that’s only if the clutch was very improperly installed and/or incorrectly adjusted (e.g., PIS setting).

The F1 system is remarkably well designed to protect itself from user error on many levels. Upon deceleration it will downshift automatically if the driver does not. If the driver calls for a downshift which will rev the engine beyond red line, the system will simply ignore the request.

Yes the Ferrari F1 is exactly like a standard transmission (since that’s what it actually is), but it also has multiple automatic safeguards to protect itself against driver error.

 

Exactly correct. I would add:
1) it will not upshift automatically
2) stopped foot on brake is exactly like stopped in N. Take your foot off the brake and the clutch goes to a "ready" position; if you don't take off within 30 seconds it will shift to N (I think I got the time right).

 

Not true. If you are stopped in 1st with foot on brake the clutch is constantly engauged (as if clutch pedal was on floor). In N the trans is in N and clutch disengauged. What's the difference? The F1 pump must keep constant pressure in 1st with foot on brake. Eventually the car will BEEP several times and put you in N. So at a long light I always select N. I have forgot to do so and had the car put it in N, then when the light changed I was in N and dis not know, causing a slight embarrassment.

You will have the least wear on the F1 pump using N at lights. I also coast up to lights in N often.

 

Respectfully disagree....

my mechanic... said NO more wear on clutch when in first gear at a stop compared to neutral, as long as brake is applied...

My wear on clutch proved his point... i show exactly the same % of wear on yearly services.... That is i use to do as you suggest, neutral at stop... now i leave in first gear at stop... the percentage of wear is exactly the same from year to year..

 

No offense Trent, but not correct. There is no difference to the F1 pump standing still whether in gear or not. Again, the clutch is fully withdrawn in both cases so pump usage is the same. The only difference anywhere in the F1 gearbox system standing still is whether or not the gear is engaged.

The embarrassment you describe is precisely the reason I always sit in gear with foot firmly on the brake while stopped. I see it as something of a safety issue. Since there is truly no difference to the F1 system whether in gear or not, it just seems logical to do so.

Standing still in gear with foot on the brake (firmly!) the system automatically beeps and takes itself out of gear after 10 minutes. With foot casually resting on the brake (or completely off) the system will beep and take itself out of gear after 10 seconds.

 

Wow, I don't feel as bad asking now. It seems like there is no definitive answer on this question. I think there may be some misunderstanding with the clutch wear issue when waiting at a light. If it is like a manual transmission, there is no additional wear on the clutch if you sit in first gear, because it's disengaged (unless improperly adjusted, and it drags). There is, however, additional wear on the throwout bearing on a manual. There is force on the bearing, to open the clutch when the pedal is depressed. With a manual transmission, it is a big NO NO to sit in 1st with the clutch depressed. Is the F1 transmission the same, I would imagine it's the same physics on the F1 transmission. Logic tells me that the F1 should also be in neutral at a light, No?

 

I've experienced the dreaded "opps, im in N not 1st". lol Darren took me for my first ride in my car and I noticed he just leaves the car in 2nd and lets the car downshift itself into 1st when stopping. I used to downshift my Gallardo to 1st but Darrens technique is much smoother and the one I now use. I also stay in 1st gear, foot on the brake at a stop.

 

You misread my post. I never stated any increase in clutch wear, I stated an increase in F1 pump duty and thus wear. I agree the clutch material usage is the same. But remember there are more components to your drive line than the clutch. Also note that the throwout bearing can and will wear sitting in 1st with foot on brake. The throwout has been the cause of many a clutch change even when there is friction material left.

If you do not believe that your F1 pump is holding the clutch to the floor while in 1st with foot on brake, just sit in front of your house for 5mn in 1st with the foot on the brake. You will hear the F1 pump running often, and see the TCU take you out of 1st and into N, then release the clutch.

Question: Driving a 3 pedal car; would you sit at a long light with the clutch pedal to the floor or pop it in neutral and rest the leg and throwout bearing? Your choice either way, but its the exact same mechanical action in the 360/430 F1. You would still also have to remember to put it in a forward gear when the light changed.

 

No, not correct. You are correct that the throwout bearing only spins when the clutch is disengaged in a manually operated standard transmission. However, the Ferrari F1 uses a special “constant contact” T/O bearing which spins all the time (i.e., disengaged or not). There is some longitudinal load when disengaged but that’s insignificant in terms of wear on the bearing. There is no advantage whatsoever to any part of the Ferrari F1 gearbox by sitting in neutral when stopped.

The car will only shift into neutral automatically if: (1) You sit more than 10 minutes in gear with foot firmly on the brake, or (2) You sit more than 10 seconds with foot off the brake or only casually resting on it.

This later situation is probably what you’re doing – foot touching the brake peddle but not pushing hard enough to convince the system you really mean it. Bingo! Automatically shift into N putting you in danger and making you look like a fool when the light turns. Just press down harder and you should be fine.

 

I take no offense to a good argument (difference of opinion).

If the clutch was "fully withdrawn" in either case, as you state, the car would be moving or the transmission would have to be in N. Its a contradiction of state. Its just a manual transmission, the same unit in the 3 pedal cars. The only possible solution is that in 1st the display shows 1st but the transmission is "really" in N. But a quick test outside proves otherwise. There is no shift linkage movement from 1st + Brake to forward motion.

I have had it happen at several long stoplights, and there is no way they are 10min long. I would guestimate it was more like 3min that felt like 7min. It also does not seem to happen at the same duration every time, so maybe there is a formula for F1 pump duty, time in 1st+brake, and some other parameters. I dont know. *I have a 2006 430 F1 Spider, maybe the TCU software is different for different years, very possible.

*I will take the action item to sit in 1st+brake on a cold and warm system and report the time from 1st+brake to N. I think it would be an interesting test.

 

I keep it in 1 at most lights. I occasionally put it in N.

I have been told by more people (about 5:1) that it makes no difference. I have never experienced the beeping and having the car select N on its own.

 

Sorry Trent, still not correct. The F1 system disengages the clutch when stopped regardless of being in gear or not. In other words, the F1 pump is holding the clutch peddle to the floor if you’re in gear or not. No difference to pump duty cycle and no difference to the constant contact T/O bearing.

 

Mine always switches to neutral at stop lights. It takes about 10-15 seconds. Mine is a 355, don't know if that makes a difference. The beep is not always loud enough to hear over the sound of the motor.

 

Quite correct that it’s just a manual transmission, in fact the same one installed in the 3-peddle cars. If you’re standing still and the display shows “1” (first gear), the gear is definitely engaged. You’re simply sitting still in first gear with F1 holding the clutch peddle to the floor. If you're standing still and the display shows "N" it's definitely in neutral but F1 is still holding the clutch peddle to the floor.

My car is an ’02 F1 360 so the times could easily be different. I suspect the reason for apparently different times to automatic N shift is brake peddle pressure. I have certainly done the same thing – sit in first for “a while” (less than 10 minutes) and suddenly realize I’m in neutral. The problem is unintentionally (and unknowingly) letting up on the brake peddle causing the system to shift into N.

 

Any ideas on what are they trying to accomplish by automatically going to neutral by this method. It seems to add confusion, but I can't think of any particular benefit. Why not just sit in gear with the clutch released as long as is needed or the driver decides on neutral ?

 

I think there's something in the manual about this. I'm going to look it up when I get home.

 

+1. If the car feels the need to be in 1st, maybe it should be.

 

But Ferrari's design of the system to automatically go into neutral implies that they feel that the car needs to be in neutral.

 

So I think I understand my error. I was under the impression that in N the clutch would be disengaged (pedal not pressed). I also think I understand Ferrari engineering reasons, the last thing you want is to hydraulically drive the manual transmission into or out of gear with the clutch disengaged; it would be a grinding and possibly engine stalling event. So always having it engaged unless vehicle motion is required seems like the logical choice.

*I will still verify this, but it makes sense from the design aspect.

So then at a light, to keep it in 1st or N is your choice with the only differences being;
1. In N you can revv to 7500 RPM at will, just to make sure all is well.
2. In 1st you could possibly find yourself in N if you go soft on the brake pedal, and then not be able to advance until you figure out what happened.
3. In 1st you might be faster to get out of a bad situation if one arises.
4. In N you can coast up to a light from a distance, which I prefer on all my vehicles with all transmission types. Too bad my Lexus automatic does not have the Porsche panamera "coast" feature.

 

Well said Trent. And a pretty good list of choices for standing still.

 

There is a definitive answer and we finally got everyone on the same page. Jim was right and Trent now understands how the system works, all good.

As for F1 pump working harder (cycling) I would say that only happens if you have an F1 leak. Otherwise once the pressure is there it will stay there and the pump would never cycle again.

Let's see, I want my car to stay in 1st all the time even if I inadvertently take my foot off the brake. That is not a good idea. The system selects N after a short while of no brake for safety. Skipping that whole part about ready position blah blah blah.

Yes there is. Have a look and it will validate what we are saying.