Car design is harder than I had thought... help please

John will have to alk about the more typical operation of today but I can point to the past.

6 designers "on the boards". One of these was the assistant studio manager who usually was on the boards unless the manager was out. The studio manager was no longer on the boards (Jerry Palmer was an exception).

There was a group of modelers in the studio. The designers typically did not do any of the clay work themselves unless it was to explain a fine detail of decide a radius. The 6 designers worked together but also were competeing against each other to get their designs selected by "management". The selection covers the basic design but then all the proposals along the way for the nose, the back, roof and all details that happen along the way. I'll again defer to John on current timelines but it used to be several years that a project was in the studio being designed.

Looking at the Italians check the drawings by Michelotti, Giugaro (early years, expecially pre-Ital Design), and even Pf. Someone was making the interpretation from these drawings into metal. The Italians were not doing clay much, if at all in the 1950s. They somehow lofted to wood bucks and then hand hammered the metal. I believe that Pf did fairly complete body design before it was turned to Scaglietti. Do not forget that Pf did a lot of the body building themselves instrad of turning over all the bodies to Scaglietti.

Jeff

 

Second gen. 2008.It was a competition with the Cadillac production studio,the Advanced studio in Mi,the California Advanced studio,and the Advanced studio in the UK.! Never had all 5 full size in the studio,but had them on the design patio. The Cadillac Production Studio had 2 full size clays.Only the Sedan was in the original brief. The studio did the Coupe & Wagon w/o prior approval just did those on our own.

Mr. Lutz pretty much left us to our own devices,and was one of our biggest supporters.

 

i'm curious, what makes, for you, that special "it" of a student/talent, one which you just know is the next callum, mays, fisker, etc??

earlier in the thread was spoke of a gal who was hired, and had to be taught to draw automotives ....what made her then chosen over others who could?

i read about how the industry is flooded with talent/graduates, so out of that what makes any particular ones stand out / shine?

 

interesting ...i don't know what 'on the boards' exactly means ....i suppose competition breeds better, or at least faster results, so that makes sense

i've read so much about PF and knew they did body work inhouse too, but to what extent ....i look at original drawings (or what is out there to see) like the miura, and compare them to the final product ....in my eyes, it looks like the metal shop was given the drawings, and a rolling chassis, but from there, the final curves and contours followed the physical confines of the chassis and "in the flesh" interpretation ....i could be wrong, maybe there were much more definite blueprints they were obliged to follow the body work to??

 

Excellent question.Unfortunately,there is no single trait IMHO that makes it easy to identify potential success.However there are several attributes that stand out:
problem solving skills/ability to think through a design brief
passion for the product/knowledge of the product/enthusiasm
judgement/taste (difficult to define,but you know it when you see it)do you make the right choices?
execution (how do you execute your ideas?)in both 2D & 3D
presentation skills,both artistic & verbal (to "sell"your ideas)
creativity
ability to think on your feet
leadership skills

Most beginning students seem to think it's all about making "pretty" renderings/sketches.My response is that you can teach a monkey to draw........but it's difficult to get a monkey to solve complex design problems.It's not always the best renderer that comes up with the best ideas.

Hope that briefly answered your question.It's a very competitive profession,so the strong/talented usually survive & thrive.What separates the winners from the "also rans" are the points I referred to above.

 

Many of the successful Italian designs from the '50's-'80's were done with 3 view drawings.Front,side,rear elevation drawings,much like architecture.Just the way they worked in the Italian design houses.Old issues of Car Styling & Style Auto have examples of that process/technique.

 

I believe Jeff is referring to "on the boards" as the designers that used to draw with pencil/paper at drawing boards.Now many sit at computer monitors.
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yes, i think so, thank you ....i was curious, because being such a packed field (more candidates then jobs) i reckoned the student selection process must also tighten up also

i recognize the list of attributes must be more than one ....i suppose like most industries it's also a good portion of good timing & 'who' you know also (leads, connections, referals)

i understand the auto design field is awash with capable graduates, and a young(er) persons industry (to enter) ....so i was curious how you sorted through that?

my own personal desire is to build boutique cars, one-off designs of my own, or a clients, and build to completion...not like foose, or hotrod shops, more like very early PF, Bertone, Ital perhaps, but on a much smaller independant scale ....i have all the building & mechanical skills necessary, and i can improve focus on my design / rendering skills ...it might seem strange, or even "another guy who thinks he can", i have several more serious designs i like best for that, even a couple of boats and a economical aircraft design to compete with the avanti ....i'm thinking of just creating a blog site, posting up all my designs (with the parameters, and technical, and watermarked of course) because at least i've done something with them if nothing else ....anyways, that's my humble goal

 

yes, i just wondered "how much" got left to the body man to have freedom over? ...i took drafting classes through school, then doing misc graphic art work paid for my college start, later technical draftings/illustration for a small local log home company, so in each of those, i had different degrees of flexablility to 'change' any particular aspect

right, of course...duh?! ...makes sense, and very cool to learn how things tick in a design structure ...i suppose not unlike a ball team, a coach, assist coach, captian, players

today when i come up with a design idea, i start with an underlay of a mechanical, even a very light profile(s) of an existing car ...just to get me started with the right proportions for seating, head room, drivetrain, wheelbase, etc ....i don't know if that's correct method, but it works well for me, then from there i use that drawing(s) to look at as i free draw some perspectives

 

The term for the underlaying technical layout is "package drawing".

 

Interesting that your "old school" example is from the Cadillac studio when Chuck was the studio manager doing the '61/'62 model. A major transformation of how much that series tightened up the surfaces from the 58/60.

The your computer jockey has an interesting assortment of models on his desk. GM on the left and Euro on the right.

Jeff

 

gotcha ...i may lack the terminology, but interested in all facets
some of the reading material shown is hard to come by, others which i can get hold of i've devoured
i can get a lot on marine design, even aviation, but automotive less so
i wonder if there are old / used teaching manuals (like used by Johns students?) that can be had??

 

What you are looking for is process of creation information. Rarely are you going to get this in regular publications like R&T, C&D, MoTrend or similar. The closest will be looking at old issues of Car Styling and, to a lesser extent, Style Auto. Look at lots and lots of these and you should start to grasp the development. There is a Collector Car (or similar title) magazine that regularly shows the development process on some of their featured cars. It may not give as much detail on the process but it may help give you a greater overall understanding to read the 2 books we mentioned way earlier in this thread - the one with Dave Holls as a co-writer and the other one by the college professor.

If you are intent in achieving the creation of real cars you do have a bit of process advantage through the creative portion. You will not be one of a group of designers trying to "sell" your design against the others in the group and on to layers of design management so it can be ultimately sold to corporate heads. In the studio every designer wants to and needs to make a contribution throughout the process. Not everyone in the group shares the same vision for the design and although the originally selected design selected to develop was from one person by the time it is finished someone else may have been successful in mutating it more into their vision.

Selling design to designers is quite different from being able to be the sole arbitrator of the decision process. You do not need to prove your superior rendering or sketching abilities to get across your idea. You can make the decision of what is consistant with the design theme. To a large degree this is what makes the difference of the classic Ferrari designs by Pf. They were fundamentally one person making the design development with minimal corporate oversight and then presenting a completed design. A part of their success of the look was also that Pf and Ferrari would willingly compromise the passenger compartment package if the aesthetic were better. They also did not have to worry about production build considerations to allow thousands per week volume.

Jeff

 

How far are we from 3D printers being able to turn out models of a helpful size, that can be made fairly quickly and cheaply?

 

garnet,

Best of luck with this exciting, ambitious undertaking!

 

here's a link to a discussion thread on 3D printers, lots of good stuff there
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366563&highlight=3D+printer

thanks, i feel odd saying that out loud, but it's something to pursue, not going to be quiting my day job just yet

 

i can understand that, decisions by group and chain of command, different groups designing exterior and interior, or possibly even being assigned to different areas of the exterior only ....certainly not what kids dreaming of design expect when they get there, but then it is a business ....car design departments have continued to grow and grow, so i can see how those conflicts arise

i'm chasing down 2 books by tony lewin right now, i read quite a lot, so i'll definitely be chasing down those yet too

possibly some used actual teaching/study materials too?

besides these, my short term goals are:
get a graphics tablet, and start sketching in digital
mimic design studio process in method of my own designs, to resolved design
set up to build (a) proper clay model of resolved design
create a blog site

say Jeff,
it'd be great to see some of your work, the aircraft interiors, i can understand they being a challenge, weight, approved materials, etc

 

One of the attributes I personally look for in addition to the one's I previously listed is for the designer to have a POV or point of view.I believe it's important for a designer to explain the why of his/her designs,and be able to look someone in the eye and explain it to them.
Yes the design biz is very competitive,but no different than the movie,music,writing,advertising,medicine,law,sports,etc. businesses.It takes more than just talent.There's plenty of that to go around.
One book I would recommend you add to your design arsenal is the H-Point book.Excellent reference material,and follows Jeff's recommendation regarding vehicle packaging.
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Resolved design occurs in the clay. All the sketches and renderings are only an aid in getting to the final realization of the 3D form. There is nothing like being able to move all around the clay to see how all the surfaces resolve from normal standing height, standing on a table or kneeling on the floor. That is what you will see in a studio. Can't quite pull that off at anything but full size.

A story I heard some years back from a mutual friend of John and mine (son of ...) was something he was told by Bangle in his early days at BMW. Part of why the BMWs had such good proportions was that they stayed in clay in the studio for a long period of time as other portions of the development process went on. This let them make small tweaks on shapes and a line placement that they might not have noticed in a more hurried process. We are not talking of movement by inches these may be down at 1/8" or moving a peak point in a body side just slightly. Is and gall opening corner a point, a radius or an accelerated curve? Even with the Daytona coupe Fiovoranti has been quoted as saying he would like to alter the C pillar just slightly if he had it to do over.

Jeff

 

This is a Boeing 737-300 owned by a family in Saudi Arabia. Something that is quite different in this world is that I have a target market of 1. There is no need for a focus group or committee approval or concurrance. The only person that has to be pleased is the 1 owner. If he is happy then everything is wonderful; the peanut gallery matter very little.

Jeff
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+1
what's humorous about this statement is the current project we are working on,one of the young designers said he was bored looking at the same design for 2 months!!! I told him that at the OEM's,sometimes the clays are in the studio for more than a year.....he didn't know how to respond.

 

very cool!
one of my classmates at ACCD got into this when he graduated.Did quite well for himself.

 

This is one of 2 737-400s owned by the Crown Prince of Thailand.

Jeff
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At Chrysler way back there was a clay that kept sitting in the studio. It had been a loosing proposal for the Cordoba and Mirada. Instead of stripping it down it kept sitting untouched as management keep thinking there was something there. This eventually was resurected into the Imperial with the Daimler hump back.

Jeff

 

Here is the other Crown Prince of Thailand 737-400.
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