Very rough running-not getting fuel

search for 'frequency valve', your answer is there.

 

It does sound like the 'frequency valve' problem. Do you hear it buzzing?
I do have my old used working protection relay I can send you if you think that's the problem.


See my thread, its long but lots of info and know how:
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=364375

all the best,
Mike

 

I'm looking for the exact location of the frequency valve relay on a 1986 Ferrari Mondial Cab.

I can put power and ground to the valve and the car idles and rev's up fine. With it just electrically plugged in it idles very poorly, stalls, and will not rev up.

 

It must be that time of season, everyone is having engine problems?
Frequency valve protection relay, (right rear trunk next to radio aerial).

see my thread when I was there:
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=364375&highlight=loss+power&page=4

 

Thank you for the location

 

Hi all, looks like its an epidemic going on here. I have a UK spec 87 Mondial 3.2 with 35,000 miles.
I too am suffering from rough idle, power loss and backfire. I bought the car a month ago and was hardly ever used in 2 years, barely 200 miles. I use it every day since i bought it to avoid problems and some have fixed themselves from daily useage!
However when i start from cold it just about starts and I leave it to warm up. It idles rough at 500rpm, and after a minute or so it will stall. When i start it again it struggles and takes quite a while to get going again, a very long while almost to the point of flooding. When it gets going its 500rpm again and very rough and tries to stall. When i get driving i feel it sounds very sick until its run for a while and settles. But every now and again it will hold back and lose power then backfire. On one occasion it would not go more than 50mph max on the highways, very embarrassing! I stopped it then immediately re-started and all was fine, went like a rocket!
There is a smell of slight exhaust gas, maybe a leak? But the intermittent power loss and backfire is very worrying. There is an oil leak too which needs looking at but I dont think thats the issue here.
I have been reading the threads here about frequency valves and protection relays, does this apply to UK spec Euro cars too? If not does anyone know what i can do to try fixing the problems.
Mike, I read about you coil modules which fixed a similar problem, where did you get those and what is the reference? Maybe they would be a good starting point.
Thanks everyone.

Peter

 

No, a stock euro/UK 3.2 Mondial does not have those injection system components. With your symptom, you should first confirm/deny if you have spark on both banks...

 

As Steve said, confirm you have spark in both banks. Some of your symptoms are similar to what I had about a month ago: rough idle, power loss, backfire. My problem was the cold start injector, on the right hand side of the plenum.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367641&highlight=mondial

 

Thanks Steve for confirming the frequency valve and protection relay not being part of the UK Euro spec for Mondials. Do you know why not and what are their purpope?

How do i confirm spark on both banks?

Thanks also to TheMac, is the cold start injector the blue plug on the side of the plenum? If so does it easily remove and replace?

Many thanks!

 

I started by checking spark at each cylinder with a timing light.

The cold start injector is indeed the blue plug on the side of the plenum. If you find that you do have spark, you can isolate check the cold start injector by disconnecting the electrical input (squeeze connection to the injector itself). The advantage of this is that it leaves the injector in place; if you remove the injector and don't replace it with anything else, you will have a vacuum leak. Removing the injector itself, if you choose to go that route, is very simple. A couple of other F-chatters have simply disconnected the electrical switch and left it off, since the cold start injector is really only needed in, well, cold weather. Mine is currently disconnected and the car starts and runs fine.

 

Thanks Jon thats great.
I will try removing the cold start blue plug first and go from there as i dont have a timing light at hand dont know how to use it to test each spark. I am new to this and your help is very valuable.

Thanks.
Peter

 

Because your (euro) Bosch CIS system is the K-Jetronic without Lambda type. 1980 to 1983 US 308/Mondial also used this same system, but in 1984 (and after) the US V8 models were changed to the K-Jetronic with Lambda type (which has these other components and a different fuel distributor that uses the signal from the O2 sensor to slightly tweak the mixture on a real-time basis to keep the average A/F ratio stoichiometric).

Timing light or an auto parts store should have a simple tool often called a "spark tester" that is essentially a neon bulb that when placed next to the spark plug wires will flash when/if the spark pulse occurs -- shouldn't be more than 5~10 quid.

 

Hi Steve, thanks very much for your reply. Whenever I read about the frequency value and protection relay I really thought it may be the problem. I will buy the timing light spark tester and do the test on Saturday and also try the blue cold start plug.
I'll let you know how I get along
Thanks again to all.

 

Hello Peter,
You are in good hands with Steve's help. First, you need to confirm spark, I did this with a timing light, see my video in the thread below.
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=364375&highlight=loss+power&page=5

Test and change the cheapest parts first if you find a problem (i.e. ignition module alot less than coils or ecu unit). Also, here are the part # for ignition module / coils.
(see photo, just do a search online and shop around Ricambi America, eBay, other Ferrari parts online shops)

All the best!
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Hi Mike and Steve,
Thanks so much for posting those photos. I first unplugged the cold start injector blue connector at the plenum at made no difference at all when starting. It still tried to stall and ran rough. Not sure if this still means the injector could be blocked but even when the car is warmed up it still loses power.

I will locate a spark plug tester this weekend and whatever happens will definitely replace both the ignition coil modules using the reference you supplied. Whether it solves the problem or not i reckon its good maintenance to change them anyway. Are they easy to remove and fit? Also should the battery be disconnected first?

I noticed the battery is only 60Ah instead of the recommended 66Ah. I will be fitting a Bosch S5 series 77Ah this weekend. Would a higher Ah rating be of any concern?

Thanks again!!!

 

I don't think getting a 77Ah battery will solve your problem. If you can get a timing light or plug tester, its used just to connect to the plug wires to determine the spark timing, if it misfires, you will see the light stops. Check the 1st 4 banks facing the rear engine lid, then test the other bank of plugs behind the rear seats for cabrios, if you have a coupe, it will be tight. It does sound like it could be related to your ignition module, coils, or crank sensor. Its all laid out on my loss power thread, it be good for you to read thru it, I know its long, but very helpful info.

All the best!

 

Hi Mike thanks for that. I did read your thread about power loss and must admit it sounds extremely similar which is great learning.
Do you know how may tdc and taco sensors there are and are they easy to fit? I will be changing all these parts as a preventative measure considering its barely been used till I bought it a month ago.
You did an amazing job on your car, very inspiring for us all.
Thanks again!

 

Hello Peter,
Steve Magnusson knows more about this than I do, but from a quick diagram search on 3.2 ignition systems, I believe there's 1 TDC sensor and 1 Angolar Speed Sensor.

But before you replace those, you need to confirm spark is getting to the plugs.
I'm thinking your ignition power modules maybe going bad.
see part diagram:
http://www.ricambiamerica.com/parts_catalogs.php?V=diag&I=2589

Good Luck.
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Thanks Mike that's excellent. The diagram doesn't show position of the sensors and will try and find some photos. Not sure if it needs to be on a lift.
I will be buying a spark tester tomorrow and let you know how I get along. By the way it was a nightmare changing the battery, what a terrible design. Oh well that's what makes these cars challenging and fun
Thanks Mike.

 

I trust it isn't necessary to remove the transaxle to get to those two sensors ... IS IT?

 

Oh I hope not! It was bad enough replacing the battery.
I aim to do what i can as much as possible and leave the big stuff to the specialists. Its great to enjoy working on the car and appreciate it more each day but I am certainly no mechanic, more an enthusiast.
Peter

 

I don't think the transaxle needs to come apart just to replace the sensors. The previous cut away photo was just for illustrations on where it is relative of the flywheel. The sensors look to be held in by 2 side screws (in/out) from transaxle shell but since I never had to change mine, I don't know for sure.

BTW, found this nice Ignition system diagram for a Mondial 3.2 that may help in your troubleshooting.

All the best!
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Before you go down this path, did you check the spark plug extenders first? They can arc through the side and short circuit the spark to a cylinder, creating what you describe. I will post a picture later.