Barn find.... today | Page 14 | FerrariChat

Barn find.... today

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by davehelms, May 29, 2012.

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  1. rockford

    rockford Karting

    Jan 23, 2009
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    Dave.

    Back in post 246 you referenced skimming .0015 off as potentially being enough to make the chain tensioner unable to be adjusted. Did you mean .015? Or is the tolerance that close? Or is it my eyes? I am old.
     
  2. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    .015" is enough start creating problems. The tensioner was designed to give enough adjustment for a stretched chain but moving the head closer to the crankshaft centerline was not in its design parameters. When there is a warped head you were supposed to call your local dealer and get a replacement head. Once you give up on that wait, the key is to straighten the heads where a .0015" cut is all that is required to put things true again. Getting to that point can be a humbling experience but not near so as straightening the pot metal/aluminum carb bases and bodies. The heads will bend but they also have a memory and spring back. Most often they must be over bent so the spring back is to a point where they are once again straight.
     
  3. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    #328 davehelms, Jul 31, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Really nothing new and exciting, just grungy, dirty work BUT... the suspiciously quite "Project Manager" proclaimed yesterday, "tomorrow we are pulling that carb together"! WOW, hold the press! An executive decision and proclamation was made! Navin Johnson greeted the mailman (you see a common trend here, I know Navin VERY well, all TOO well...before I go toes up I WILL have and work in one of those hats, its a bucket list thing for me! The closest I ever got was a Penszoil skull cap while working at the Mobil station in High School, its all been downhill from there) tore through the phone book and just realized the world is now his canvas, he is in Control! GREAT... now we are going places, this car WILL get done, it WILL go together today and everything in the World will be good again. I wonder if she ever made a decision on the throttle shafts and ordered those up..... of course she DID, a Royal Proclamation was made, I must have just missed the FedEx guy yesterday.... I almost feel a tinge of guilt to even question such a thing...

    While the Royalty was off contemplating her next proclamation to make (this AM I will present her with her Scepter, it might look like a toilet brush to the unknowing but really it is a Scepter, a sign of power, a ticket to go places... might even get her a free coffee at lunch if she walks into the coffee shop holding with a sense of authority. On the same topic, I DO have pictures of Keegan and Don with their tinfoil hats on, holding their sceptors... one day I will share), her Minions were getting dirty and pulling the shifter housing off. Having to guess where the next gear Really is, all while having that location a moving target... takes away a little of the fun of driving the car.

    As suspected, the plastic bushing had gone on a walk about, leaving nary a trace of its existence. If there is an unsolved mystery in the Ferrari world, this is IT! A sealed chamber with the only way in or out being past the close tolerances of a machined shaft in its polished bore or a centerless ground ball in a machined socket.... where in the Hell do these bushings go when they break apart?! There is never a sign of plastic debris, heck, not even plastic dust... NOTHING to suggest anything was ever there. The second biggest mystery is where the remainder of the broken springs on the shift stalk end up! Its all but a foregone conclusion it will be found broken once you go in there.... but where do they go?! The pieces are Never found on the magnet, that is reserved for a collection of Black Lagoon swill that at one time in history was the leading edge of sincro dogs. There is a secret void that Ferrari built into these gearboxes that collects the debris of these spring pieces and shifter bushings.... pure brilliance in its design, mankind has yet to identify the hidden trap door that takes these stray pieces in!

    Of course, the proper plastic bushing has long been NLA so the available part must be machined to fit... what, you thought that paying for a part means you can install it as removed from the yellow box.... WTH were you thinking... get with the program, the parts for the new cars dont fit out of the box, why would you think an old one would?! If you ever walk into a shop that proclaims they do restorations... and dont see a FULL machine shop in the back room... better think again... nothing fits as intended, everything requires 3 extra machine steps..... a "Some Assembly Required" process, something of an inside joke from the Noodle Benders in Italy.... "You'a want it'a to FIT too?". Keep a sense of humor, these are the same folks that gave the world the Pre rusted Fiat 850 Spyder that would literally break in half just in front of the seats when you hit a pothole, while at the same time giving the little popcorn popper engine full throttle when it happened.... its all in good fun... just requires a sense of humor.
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  4. chas-3

    chas-3 Formula 3
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    Based on that last post, me thinks Dave is having way to much fun! :D
     
  5. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    Nooo.... this is a JOB and this time I am working for Smurf Royalty. I dream of one day of being caught up enough to do this thing during the day rather than at night... need to open up your slot.
     
  6. Jenni

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    TODAY, the carbs ARE going together! 10 4.
    Project Manager
     
  7. IanB

    IanB F1 World Champ
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    Oh my, I nearly choked on my coffee from laughing while reading this... :)
     
  8. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    #333 davehelms, Jul 31, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    How did THAT work out for you.... BOSS?! Forget to order the shaft's did you"? Happened to have a brain slip about checking the drawer for the correct oversized reamers? Oh... that's right, you have 'People' for that..... oops, my bad.

    There are defining moments in history and those moments give us evidence to be able to semi accurately track back to when work was done. It tells us a lot about the people involved in repairs and the caliber of those repairs. Today's day and age... if you see Duct Tape, you know that someone cared to give their vehicle the very best! Once again, Mythbusters brings us the answers to plaguing questions regarding such a thing BUT.... why O why wasn't it the Redhead that was "stranded on the island" with only duct tape... that would have been a ratings Block Buster only behind Giligans Island.... but I digress...

    Friction tape... the staple of the generation proceeding ours, the Greatest Generation fixed Everything with friction tape, and it lasted a generation! Here we have the Carello transmission switch and 2 feet of friction tape holding the end cap in place. If I wasn't so grateful that the cap was still there..... I might question why the cap was not just popped back in place. The switch was in perfect shape and with the cap removed it allowed an easy clean up and re lube. But Joe..... 2 feet of friction tape to hold it in place.... really?

    Anything worth doing is worth Overdoing I guess! The simple fact is it lasted and was still here to dress back up. I am in hopes I wont be frowned upon in my decision to put it back on Sans the tape.
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  9. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Friction tape IS handy for the smaller flesh wounds, but I think Superglue has won over the current generation....

    I have all kinds of "tape" pictures, so don't get me started!
     
  10. cavlino

    cavlino Formula 3

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    Hey Jenni, nice to hear from you :)
     
  11. frefan

    frefan F1 Veteran

    Apr 21, 2004
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    I just love these pics. Sometimes I learn stuff I really should not, but its fun. Thanks Dave & co
     
  12. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

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    YIPES!
     
  13. Jenni

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    Ok, the head scratching question is still lurking.. Where is that plastic bushing Dad? Get the flash lights out, it's time to investigate.
    And about those oversized reamers, yup, en route. Maybe that small brain slip was due to the 20 foot long pig manure dump truck you stuck us behind on our.. oh so joyful test drive this AM. Absolute worst smell I have ever witnessed. Recuperating tonight...
     
  14. Jenni

    Jenni Rookie

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    back in the game :)
     
  15. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

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    I bet he did that on purpose....................;)
     
  16. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    Oh that was Special.... one of those moments where you look over at the one seated by you...... the 20 ft dump truck was acutually 48 feet of Country Fresh fragrance in all it glory! A couple million cars on the road at any given time of the day and what gets stuck directly behind this Joy hauling conveyer dump SEMI? Scott's 355... If there was a high point... it wasnt dripping but it was pungent enough to Straighten any leather in the interior! Guess we best set that outside for the day!

    The bushing.... its in that secret place.... the one we cant tell you about until you have the secret decoder ring and learn the secret handshake. Hell, I sent in my four bits and 6 Frosted Flakes box tops near 50 years ago and I still dont have my decoder ring... I have no clue... that is a mystery that is left for your generation to solve.

    The upside to last evenings excersice with the shift housing.... its once again crisp and has no play what so ever. First is where first should be, the same with reverse and just the joy to have the stalk snap back over to the 3-4 line up position with the new spring in place... oh the simple things in life!

    Much to my surprise, the Zinc Chromate was in very nice shape, a rather odd thing to find at this age. Aside from my ham fisted scraping of it while forming up a new spring and the aggressive scrubbing I did when cleaning out the old stiff grease, it was still in remarkably good condition. I can remember back in the early 70's when I peered into the innards of a PF Coupe engine, how impressed I was that the Factory would paint the inside of all the engine castings. Back then painting the inside of all engines and gearboxes was reserved for only the highest level of competition engines, to promote rapid oil drain back to the sump where the oil would cool and be ready to serve its real purpose. OH these Italians.... they are The Greatest... and it comes that way on a Production car... I was absolutely beside myself with respect and admiration!!

    Forward a few years... I finally figured out WHY they actually went through the efforts to paint the castings. Rapid oil drain back my eye.... this was done just to 'seal' up the rough sand cast castings that without this step allows oil to weep straight through the pores in the castings. I am still fighting with myself as to which was the primary purpose but, while tooth brush prepping/cleaning the inside of a factory effort 250 race engine I was building a good many years ago, I believe I found the Primary reason this effort was made. To seal it up for the sake of leakage was a valid suggestion BUT, they were sealing the castings to keep the residue sand in the pores of the casting and not loose in the sump to be pumped through the oiling system. Clean one of these blocks inside, to the point where it is being done inch by inch with a tooth brush and a magnifier on your head, it quickly becomes appearant just how much sand is left under the Zinc Chromate! The inside of the blocks were painted right after a cleaning at the foundry. It is quite obvious that this is the case because the paint goes right up to a fine line where any finish machining was done to the main bores, clearancing for the crank counterweights and connecting rods, etc... The machine shop got these blocks already internally painted and they whiddled down where machining was required.

    To see this paint intact in the trasmission is a real relief and gives hope that the same will be found once the engine is opened up. Surely the paint is past its useful life now and must be removed and repainted, a daunting task that is near always left for the new hire Droid. Hours of tapeing the areas where a few thousandths thickness of paint cant be, thin down the first coat to the consistancy of a well seasoned Single Malt to promote it wicking into the pores of the castings, gather up a model brush and a chair... and your ready to start. Why give this important task to the new shop Droid? Because we no longer use Zinc Chromate, we use a new concoction that my body shop owner years ago warned me would leave us glowing in the dark when inhaled.... and here sits the blockhead who is going to do this job with a 1/4" paint brush to cut in the fine edges. I usually plan this task to take about 3-4 days.... a day of painting and the next 3 recooping from hanging over the block while performing this lovely job. Why do you think I refuse to waste the time to learn the first names of new hires for the first month or so? Just guess... Sitting outside (hell no I dont want that stinky stuff in the shop), in the sun wearing a full Hazmat suit and a full face respirator... for hours... "Next... we have two more blocks to paint!". Think I was happy when I saw Ferrari change to Pressure Casting techniques?!

    Not many owners want this type of work to be done... its inside the engine or gearbox, it doesnt show... why waste the time? Based on the numbers I read now quoted for a vintage 12 rebuild.... few if any are being done, I know the ones I need to reopen are not. As I nievely thought in my youth... its not just for 'Purdy'... it serves a very important purpose. Measure up a Vintage engine while its on the dyno, going from stone cold to full oil temp and learn just how much and which directions these aluminum lumps expand and contract... and then think about that sand sitting in those pores waiting to fall into the sump. When earlier I suggested this Project might just be the Clash of the Titans...... The "Project Manager" IS the newest hire regardless of how long she has been here.... Houston, we have a problem!.... The office manager always liked her more than me and there are two "Titled" managers up against one old............. Droid, I suspect.
     
  17. JCR

    JCR F1 World Champ
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    What are you using now for casting sealant? Back in the day it was typically "glyptal" an alkyd paint used for all the wrong reasons ie. (oil drainback) in cast iron engines by racers. I think they got the idea from the pre-war Harley/Indian guys who were using it to seal the porous aluminum castings. But that is old school by today's standards. The most current method is Loctite Resinol. One type can be painted while the other uses vacuum impregnation.
     
  18. JWeiss

    JWeiss F1 World Champ
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    Serves you right for remembering her first name.
     
  19. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    How TRUE is that! The rest of the day, she will have to answer to "Old number 47". I do this knowing there will be a price to pay.

    I have not tried the Resinol JCR. I have used a very thinned down version of the Glyptal a number of times as that has held up beautifully on oil bathed electric motors IF prepped properly. As you say, that is quite old school and a nightmare if the prep was not done properly.

    I use a highly reduced 2 part catalyzed paint developed for a Military application and have been very pleased with the long term results. Each builder who goes through the efforts to do the task has their own favorite.
     
  20. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    #345 davehelms, Aug 2, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2012
    Earlier this week, after identifying that the Grand Pooba had forgotten to order the throttle shafts, I poured a cup of coffee and sat down for what was sure to be a timely phone conversation. There are numerous experts in most every field but when it comes to Weber's, there is One, there is no second best, the First rose so high above the others they don't merit mention. Mike Pierce, the one who defined the word "Best" is one of the really great friends I have in this market, one I have spoken to for decades and as is the case in Many instances, one I have yet to meet face to face. The Joys of having a small family business, there is never enough cash flow generated to actually close the doors and go to gatherings and meets where we would meet up.

    Every time we get on the phone together we cover every topic from Global Warming to the price of Hay... and sometimes even talk about Carbs. We laugh until our guts hurt, and when a call comes in on line 2 Kris' reply is "Dave Who?... he's on the phone with Mike". It is a call I look forward to making, one of those high points that comes along all to seldom. Honest to a fault, I never need waste my time asking about pricing, it is what it is and there is never a question it is the best. Even if a cheaper price could be found on a dare by mail order from a PO box in the Outback... it wouldn't matter, customer service and product knowledge of this caliber MUST be supported at any cost!

    "So now that we have solved all of the worlds problems, and agree on each and every point of your plan on creating World Peace, what options currently exist for oversize throttle shafts for DCZ's these days?". Its a question that must be asked because Mike has to deal with the same supply problems we all have to in this economy. A repair plan must be built around what parts are available and my earlier thought of running roller bearings on a std size shaft were dashed when Mike proclaimed "All that is available now is 8.5mm O/S shafts". It's baaaack, "No big deal, we can change our plans as long as you have them in stock". With a promise to call him back as soon as I measured up the bodies and verified that those would work, I ended one of the most enjoyable conversations with a good friend that one could hope for.

    The dreaded time had finally come, time to reopen the hernia wounds of years gone by and break out the 4" granite measuring plate. As years progressed I evolved to the point where I broke down and purchased a Zero'ing digital level but still I insist on shimming the granite plate to level according to what the earth is in Boulder CO..... one would have to know Boulder to understand this.... 25 square miles surrounded by Reality.... and one cant take for granted what IS level here, that changes daily! Why do I do this when I can just zero the level to what ever the plate sits at? Hell, I don't know, why do I keep doing this job when I could work on Toyota's, eliminate my heartburn and get a paycheck on Friday... just stubborn I guess.... another mystery for the Smurf to solve after she finds the plastic bushing shards.

    The body base now straight again, its time to see if the surfaces are still parallel and the shaft bores perpendicular to the base. I spent a week in Italy when we were getting trained on the 360's. We ate lunch with the Ferrari employees, I rode the bus with Weber guys in an attempt to locate Kris and another tech's wife who traveled the country doing the gift shopping for the tech's in class.... a WHOLE story in itself, imagine two ladies, sitting at a huge dinner table in the evening, taking gift orders while collecting INSANE amounts of CASH from guys who are stuck in class from sun up to sun down (NO, no wife back home would have believed that we literally never got a chance to go out and shop for them and a Teeshirt from the gift shop at the airport would have spelled disaster!) ... and then asked to travel the country, with pockets stuffed FULL of cash (Im talking a roll that would make a Drug Lord blush with envy), shopping for that 'special something' for better than a dozen guys... and actually RETURN to boot!!! That aside, I got to know some Weber guys in my travels there.... to ASSUME that the throttle shaft bores were ever perpendicular to two parallel surfaces from the very beginning when these were new...... well..........
     
  21. 180 Out

    180 Out Formula 3

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    These descriptions of the black art of vintage Ferrari repair have brought to mind the Sorcerer's Apprentice segment of the Disney "Fantasia" movie. When you leave the shop be sure not to leave the magic wand out where the Smurf can find it.
     
  22. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    #347 davehelms, Aug 2, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2012
    Pieces and parts.... and a lot of grime. A double cut rasp, a 5 pounder and Q Tip and she will work like new.... the 330, Not Jenni. She is too busy struting around with her toilet brush sceptor to pick up the Magic Wand. Looks more like a band leader Baton Girl than a tech!
     
  23. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran

    Batons can still hurt unless one is fast or has armor. Something tells me you may have neither at this time.
     
  24. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    #349 davehelms, Aug 3, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2012
    You Sir, once again, are spot on correct in your assumption. The banter always comes with a cost. History as a teacher, it provides me with great in site into this matter, it Will sting.

    Surface plate finishing of the carb body top face showed minimal distortion from over torquing of the carb top screws, a welcomed finding... there was no more than a few thousandths that had to be cleaned up in this area. Measurements were taken and the parallel surfaces found to be within a few hundredths of a degree, and the throttle cover machined surface within the same tolerance of perpendicular to these surfaces. Depending on where one wants to measure an egg shaped worn throttle bore.... this looks to be a Wednesday AM built carb..... it is square and true, which is far from always the case!

    In a number of instances I have identified wedge shaped carbs that must have resulted when the initial surface grinding of the bodies was done.... you really DO have to clean off the surface grinder bed Before mounting the next carb to it! In function it really doesn't matter but when one is faced with resizing the throttle shaft bores to a new oversize, you have to know which surface can be trusted to index from. This is a task that is far best left to the expertise and fine touch of Mike!

    In this case I am using it as a teaching tool for Jen. Once you have walked in his shoes, have gone through the checks and measures and then are faced with horking out metal on a carb that will be Very difficult to replace if your measurements are wrong..... only then will one understand what they are writing the check for. I have fabricated all of the fixtures and jigs to straighten and accurately bore these carb bodies (where this size reamer went.... I found every other reamer from 6.5mm up through 9.5mm but... There is a secret area in this shop, much like that in the shifter housing, it houses a fine assortment of very special tools.... I like to think of it as a retirement account if by chance I ever happen to find it!) over the years as the needs arouse. To actually be involved in every step of this process will give Jenni a deep appreciation and respect of what is required, one that Very few have been involved in themselves.

    Jen is her fathers daughter, she learns much the same way I do... hands dirty, to hear about the process, to listen to a list of the steps... doesn't do it justice. My folks had a nicely framed Lord Kelvin quote on the downstairs bathroom wall when I was a kid, one I always found very interesting and intriguing. Kelvin stated:
    ""I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind"".

    "Reality Check, Isle One".... Go figure that my learning curve was influenced by, and I gleamed lasting knowledge from ........'Writings on the Shlthouse Wall' ...... one of those "Daaamn!" moments.... decades of effort reduced to THIS.... a cliché. Talk about popping your own bubble, this is going to be a long day! Another day to whiddle on carbs would be good... yup, that's the answer.
     
  25. TacElf

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    Here I am, just having arrived at work @ 6:15am. Reading a massive number code-review emails on one screen, Dave's thread on another. Just the talk of rebuilding carbs (though in this case it's more like blueprinting) brings a smile to my face and a small but real set of memories bubble back to the surface. I've only rebuilt carbs once in my life (early 80s) and not nearly to the degree you do Dave and not without guidance from an local carb guy. Still, it was a hands-dirty experience which ultimately was very satifying - if a bit frustrating at times.

    Thanks for bringing back the memories and helping make the start of my day more pleasant.
     

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