Chinetti Sues Ferrari

I tend to agree with that, but it also doesn't rule out any risks of obtaining flawed advice. Note, I am NOT making any statement about MM with this, I think I would trust his advice above anyone elses, just saying that wherever large sums of money change hands, minds get bent.

Just as a comparison, the FCA Gold Standard (I think it is called that?) dictates a car should have its' original engine. I know for a fact that a car has a Gold FCA certificate, whilst it doesn't have the original engine. So, what does an FCA certification/qualification then mean?

 

Oh, but they want it to be much more than that. Just like they want to control everything related to Ferrari as much as possible. Just ask the Ferrari clubs!

 

True, of course, but if one provides a service, the buyer of that service is entitled for it to have a value that is in relation to what he is paying for. If there is no consistency in the performance of the service-provider, the value of the service becomes debatable, and a buyer may elect to have a court-ruling on it when he deems that he has financial loss because of that.

 

You are quite right. The originallity of vintage Ferrari's (or any other object) can and will always be a subject of debate. At the end it is all a matter of evidence and the question whether or not a Classiche certificate is awknowledged as (absolute) evidence. The facts learn that the latter can not be the case. There is no way to finally conclude on the originallity of a car on merit of the Classiche certificate alone, since the certificate it self can be subject of debate.

But if people want to believe that a certificate is the final proof of the originallity of the car, I understand why such a certificate representes a sizeable chunk of the value of the car and why Ferrari makes a nice profit by offering this service.

The value of the certificate and therefor the value of the car and in a broader sense the value of the Classiche program as a whole, is determined by the market. Once the market no longer accepts the certificate as absolute proof, Classiche can pretty close for business.

 

True, but that is not the battle Coco is fighting. Unless he offers the 365P for certification and it comes out negative.

 

I think that IS the battle he is fighting. He doesn't have to subject a car for cerrtification to potentially suffer damage. The damage can be caused indirectly.

That aside, that's why I stated earlier there must be more to this than what we are presented with.

 

This is his battle.

Claiming 365P can't be sold without a blessing by Classiche will probably not hold up in court. He, as an owner, is perfectly certified to sell 365P without a Classiche stamp. The fact that taking part in the Classiche program costs a lot of money, is also legally irrelevant. Ferrari is in their fullest of rights to determine the prize of their service. And when the market seems to accept that price, than that's that.

Funny thing is that now Chinetti is asking the court to deem his cars authentic. So he, in fact, asking the Court to provide the service he refuses to ask from Ferrari Classiche. This, of course, makes only sense of the legal costs are less than the costs of a Classiche certificate and when the market places more value in a courtruling on the authenticity of a car than on a Classiche certificate. Why would the court be more able to determine the authenticity of the car than Ferrari? Will the court, if they accept Chinetti's claim, make use of experts? And will we ever know which experts?

 

3 cars...the other 2 being the cars that were caught up in litigation previously? Or ones that he re-bodied? It'd be interesting to know.

And he digs his own hole, too, and actually making the point for the existence of Classiche in the first place: Modified precludes being authentic.
Now, if Classiche isn't consistent in what they deem authentic, he may have a point.

Risky business, for as the Court rules against him as far as authenticity of his cars goes, he may suffer way more damage having to sell cars that are non-authentic by Court-ruling.

 

Chinetti already won the case in Italy against Ferrari regarding the authenticity of his two 275P's one of which he sold to an FCHATTER.

This is a new case which charges Ferrari among other things with antitrust/anticompetitive behavior and their ownership of the trademark of the Prancing Horse based on Ferrari's not contesting use of it for many years by Chinetti on cars modified/designed by Chinetti.
(The 275 GTB NART was designed and sold by Chinetti)

Chinetti's complaint as I understand it is also that Classiche certification affects the market value of Ferrari's and commerce and is influenced by factors other than the truth and is therefore anticompetitive/antitrust.

It will be interesting to see what the US Courts think.

 

Classiche is a money-maker, ridiculous or even complete nutta.
People / owners who took their cars to Maranello (or at local F shop) know what I am talking about. Ooh and not all agree, but many owners with 50/60/70s classic well know F racecars know what I mean.
They eat too much spaghetti with dope.

 

Does that mean a 275GTB4 NART cannot be Chassiche certified, or only get the attestation certification?

 

In a lot of countries, not contesting does not automatically equal endorsing. No idea what it is like in the US.
As far as the current suit goes, I interpret it the same way you do, and it will be interesting indeed to see how the US Courts rule. The potential for civil suits on the back of it must be enormous.

 

In the US under estoppel if someone gives you a duty to act (contest) and you don't within a reasonable period (About 2 Years) you lose the right to contest that specific thing forever.

 

It may mean something a bit more important than that.

Over 40 years ago Ferrari sold Chinetti 11 (?) 275 GTB's that they knew Chinetti was going to modify to a Chinetti design using an independent shop not Ferrari and offer them for sale.

Those 275 GTB's had the Ferrari Prancing Horse Emblem on their nose. Chinetti also affixed a NART emblem to those cars which also utilised the Prancing Horse Emblam on the NART Badge.

So far as I know Ferrari never objected to Chinetti's use of the Prancing Horse Emblem on the 275 GTB NART or Chinetti's use of the Prancing Horse emblem on the NART badge.

As I understand it this is one issue Chinetti is raising in his lawsuit against Ferrari.

 

I for one would like to read the actual documents filed in the lawsuit. That is the only way to understand the actual assertions of each side.

I have a suspicion that the 3-seater is far less of an issue here but other cars and parts that Lou may have in storage are.

Jeff

 

Chinetti is claiming that cars that were modified in time can not be certified which would mean that all the cars his shop modified when they were racing wouldnt be able to pass Classiche.

At least, this is what i understood!

 

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They are public record and make interesting reading.

 

Thank you for posting this article.

After reading the article, I was left with a question. In regards to the Daytona that had previous poor repairs. It doesn't mention if the poor repairs were corrected durhing the Classiche process. The Dealership " called around " and spoke to " those in the know " who stated it "had" or "was"... It is possible that the previous concerns and poor repairs were brought up to spec/standard, yes?

Now, speaking from our position, when we perform the inspections, we offer an itemized list of areas of concern and would only be able to complete the process after they have been addressed. Aftermarket exhaust on a 16m as an example.

I'm new and am trying to learn. We are expected to perform a number of Classiche inspections per year, reading threads like this help me to understand why clients may be reluctant to.

I'll continue to watch this thread,

S

 

I had a nice chat with Coco Chinetti today who mentioned that as far a racing cars go NART changed a lot of things including the shape of cars/brakes (they sometimes used Corvette Brakes in cars that ran at Le Man) and many other things like ignition components which they sourced from the local hardware store and Speed Shop. As the last Ferrari to finish 1 overall at Le Mans was one of NART's what they did seemed to work.

Frankly I can't see having any value in Classiching a modern Ferrari. Some place a value on classiche certificates on historic Ferrari's but I don't.

I do attach a high value to what those who were there in the day have to say and what the metal says.

There are many experts who know a lot more than Classiche does and several collector's who do as well.

 

I don't think the FCA would place any monetary value on a Platinum Award. In fact, I would think that they and other clubs (the NCRS is in the midst of this, right now) would actively discourage the use of their awards as a "value added" document.
Regarding a car having a Platinum Award from the FCA without its original engine, I can tell you that any modern car where the engine number is not readily visible from the top of the engine compartment could have a replacement engine and still receive the highest award possible. I would like to think that it is the correct type, and that if it wasn't that would be recognized. Verifying engine numbers on these newer cars is just not practical with the current way the cars are judged. The judging process is not intended to convey value, hence there is no extraordinary effort to verify details like this.

George

 

Some are here on Fchat.

 

In my opinion, many of the buyers of these classic Ferraris are buying them as works of art, or assessories. I have listened to many casual conversations during the Pebble week of (I assume) wealthy people contemplating buying one of these cars. It is evident from said conversations that they know next to nothing about these cars. Admitting that I, also, know next to nothing compared to many on this board.

George

 

There's also completely new engines made by classiche that are in their minds more correct that a correct period replacement engine?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA