3.? You're allowed to source parts directly from the shops that make parts for Ferrari Classiche instead of having to get them through Ferrari Classiche as I and others can for less? You can contract directly with the paint shops Ferrari Classiche uses? How about the body shops? You can have customers cars painted at these shops in Italy without going through Ferrari Classiche? How about the great shops in the US that restore Ferrari's to standards that win awards at Pebble and from Judges like Ed? Are you allowed to use those vendors to do work that is needed to obtain Classiche Certification? What do you do if for Example Marcel says that a car in the Ferrari Galleria is a fake but Ferrari Galleria says isn't? Lets say a customer wants to buy that particular car. How do you advise them? How about when a shop restores a very imprortant F1 car to running condition using the original mechanic who ran the car for a private client and Ferrari Runs that car at an event at the Factory on the anniversary of the death of the original driver. Do you agree with Classiche who state that Ferrari Classiche restored the car as the shop that did stands silently by in the background? If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it does it make a sound? As Carl Sandberg said: "Two years, Ten years and the passengers ask the conductor. What place is this? (Gettysburg) Where are we now? I am the grass let me work." Pile the bodies high. Let the Grass grow. GRASS by: Carl Sandburg (1878-1967) PILE the bodies high at Austerlitz and Waterloo, Shovel them under and let me work-- I am the grass; I cover all. And pile them high at Gettysburg And pile them high at Ypres and Verdun. Shovel them under and let me work. Two years, ten years, and passengers ask the conductor: What place is this? Where are we now? I am the grass. Let me work.
In short as you have requested before: Yes. I think you are blending points here. I am talking about performing the Classiche Inspection and providing the document (book) associated with Classiche. You seem to be piling in the actual restoration process itself.... Those are two seperate points. YES, we can use whoever we chose to perform the work the client request be performed in order to meet the Classiche guidelines. Using Ferrari SpA spec and build sheets. Which, your craftsman use as well, right? Or are they doing it "their way" and trying to pass it off as authentic? I would ask that anyone interested in this topic, read the PDF I attached to my previous post, it clearly list the specific criteria.... Maybe I missed something in there... I'm going to read through it again, just in case S
I think you did miss something. "What do you do if for Example Marcel says that a car in the Ferrari Galleria is a fake but Ferrari Galleria says isn't? Lets say a customer wants to buy that particular car. How do you advise them?" Or if Ferrari Classiche says that the car that the tail blew off at Brands Hatch in the BOAC 500 in 1967 was P4 0860 but the Metal and other irrefutable evidence clearly shows was 0858? What do you advise a customer to do? Paint it as 0860 or 0858?
You are right about one thing Steve. The guys I use wouldn't restore some cars back to the "Authentic" Specifications that they left the Ferrari Factory in. They wouldn't return the Breadvan to a SWB. They wouldn't return LC's original NART Spyders back to GTB's. They wouldn't return LC's 250 LM that NART modified back to how it left the factory. Keeping it as it won the 24 Hours of Le Mans with it's non factory modifications which LC knows and the Factory doesn't is what they'd strive for. It was interesting to see the Judges argue with LC at Pebble about what was correct and what wasn't when that car was on the lawn. As I remember they objected to the ignition wires which they said weren't Ferrari. LC agreed that they weren't but added that as the the Ferrari ignition wires were "crap" if NART had used original Ferrari ignition wires their car wouldn't have won the 24.
Oh come on Jim, you can admit that I've been right about more than just " one thing ".... I would hope that you wouldn't ASK them to ... the cars you listed are historic regardless of what Classiche may say about them! I'm going home now... Have a good evening, more tomorrow. S
Things are boiling under the surface as we speak. There will be a next generation and things will develop into next level of accuracy. It's inevitable, don't worry. Best wishes, Kare
Yes, and that's the main content of the book. nothing much added. See your sample, what does Ferrari add? Especially pages 27 and on. Do they know all the answers in pages 3 through 26? Do you perform metalurgic research, scrape paint to see if it's the original? Take things apart? Or does the owner know better? Bottom line: certification is for those without knowledge, lack of judgement skills or peace of mind (no matter what the subject is). Most people seek security, even if it's a false one. So Classiche will be succesful IMO, even though it's worth is questionable.
Depending on the car, items you are noting are not required, hence the cost is less than on a , say Daytona. When we perfored Classiche on several Daytona's, Yes, we had to take the car down to a level where items could be confrimed. BTW, the paint does not have to be original, it just has to be " LKQ " There's nothing " false " about it... Value on the other hand ,as I've stated in a previous post , IS subjective to the BUYER... ( And indirectly the seller when the buyer would have paid more had the car been Classiche'd ) S
Apparantly it is around 7-10'000 depending on how much work is involved. My figures are only what I have heard I have no evidence as my car was already certified when I bought it.
A debate of a "Moment in Time" restoration VS "As Factory Delivered". Two entirely different critiques that cant be combined if either is to be considered honest. This is why I suggest that a certification on a Competition car is senseless. It would fail the critiques of Classiche within moments of leaving the factory lot, by the very nature of its intended use. There must be two separate standards used if one program is to cover both types of cars. Imagine FAILING certification of 3223GT because it had a rear spoiler..... By the current standards it would have to fail but only a fool would even think of removing the spoiler and filling the holes the NART boys drilled, for a piece of paper! But one example of why that car would not pass.
Thank you for your response. No vehicle in particular but perhaps you could give some previous examples. It would be great if you could post a current price list.
Thanks for posting that. Is there a standard price for classiche certification or does it vary depending on the dealer or the car or the amount of work involved ? Eg assume a no stories 70's car with original drivetrain, paint & interior in excellent condition, could you give some idea of what would it cost & how long would it take? Edit: Looks like a few others have asked the same question in previous posts M
. Nothing false? An Italian court certainly thought there was regarding Ferrari's claim that two of LC's Cars were counterfeit. All of Ferrari's records, expertise, ability to find out the truth of what these two specific are was found to be False and that's one reason that LC's suing Ferrari.
If anyone is going to look at a "Moment in Time" then they need to be consistent with that moment. No picking and choosing different elements from different moments. I would also expect that the owner presenting a car for judging using a Moment in Time better bring a lot of documentation demonstrating that moment. As for 3223 I thought the tacked on rear spoiler and the relocation of the gas filler occurred by the factory during the initial development. Jeff
Thanks for providing the information so far and in advance. I've seen a list myself but didn't remember it by heart. The price goes up depending the rarity/age of the car. I know that for a 308 it costs 1.500 euro (you get 500 euro back when the car fails the certification). For a 246 Dino it's a little more than twice that amount. Does this match with your list? Thanks. Peter
Jim, Arguing this point of the 250Ps with Steve is pointless. You need to go to Chaing Mai (unless he is in France at this time of the year) to have a meaningful discussion. Jeff
Jeff Ferrari lost that court case period. In an Italian Court no less. The idea that Jess knows more about those particular cars than LC does is absurd. Did he testify in the case?
There are some Concours that understand that. Ferrari P 4/5 by Pininfarina was not as it left the Ferrari factory but it still managed to Win First in Class at Villa d'Este.
