THE F70 (LaFerrari) Thread

I reckon quite a few of the target market own or have owned 288GTO or F40

Vector & Saleen also spring to mind

Koenigsegg too

 

Very True or as the younger generation says. Werd!

 

Didn't Ferrari already prove this wrong by putting out the F12berlinetta? Surely the V12 in that car is still very much 'today'.

 

It didn't take mr. Ferrari (come on, show some class) too long to get on track with disk brakes, mid engines and aero, and start winning again.

The market will decide whether or not V12's are a thing of the past. Not some guy at McLaren. In terms of technical merits, the current crop of Ferrari V12's are nothing to laugh at. It came in at fifth place in the International Engine Of The Year Awards in the category of performance engines. Ferrari's V8 even won that category. Don't be fooled, those Italians know how to built an engine. And isn't that what the car is really all about? According to mr Ferrari anyway.

 

+1 on disliking both McLaren and turbo!

 

Anthony Sheriff’s museum V12 comment has spread far and wide. It’s wrong imo and a yawn. If I had a Mclaren F1, it wouldn’t be in a museum, it would be one of my daily drivers.

I imagine he regrets saying it. Mind you, all publicity is good publicity and all that.

 

Class? Mr Ferrari?

On the F40:

"When he steps on the throttle I want him to **** his pants."

After one of his young drivers was killed:

"Make sure you get all the pieces and the car. I'll call his Mother."

When giving Alberto a scarf for me the Man of two families, Father of an illegitimate Child with his other family asked:

"Here's two one for his wife one for his Mistress."

Mr. Ferrari was a great Man. He accomplished great things. He built wonderful cars and caused, because of his lack of class, many other great cars to be built such as Lambo's and Ford GT's one of which left him 35 miles behind at Le Mans but he wasn't classy. Compared to him I'm the Queen of England.

Luca agrees with you about V 12's and his V 12 FF hopefully will jam the roads of China which will soon be Ferrari's most important market filling Ferrari's pockets to the brim.

250P

When I was speaking with Antony on Sunday as one of Ferrari's most famous customers stood near by looking over photo's of the P 12 he certainly didn't regret his V 12 remarks.

When Gordon made the F1 V 12's were the way to go and The F1 was the last road legal car to finish first overall at Le Mans. That was also many years ago and the world has changed. The new Le Mans rules recognise this and the limit for LMP 1's will be Fuel efficiency.

In 2014 I wonder if someone will take a P 12, modify it for racing, change it's looks a bit?, and once again race a road legal car at Le Mans in LMP 1. While that could happen the odds of that happening with a New Enzo, because of it's V12, are Zero.

The guys in China buying FF's don't care.

All is good.

 

market already decided: Aventador with big, heavy V12 engine have much higher production numbers than Murcielago, that's clearly shows what type of engines customers want, twelve cilinders will stay in production much longer than people from Mclaren are thinking

 

I guess Mercedes, Pagani and Audi are bad too.

IMHO, Ferrari and Pagani have the secret for showing and driving on the road. Two McLaren MP4-12Cs at Laguna Seca had very few visitors. There's a tradeoff between road and track. Personally, I'd take a lightweight V12/V10 for the road over a V8 anytime.

"For the Mercedes-AMG engineers the Pagani projects are a perfect playground to push the envelope of technology and performance. Four years a development team of specialists has travelled the world to hone an engine that would perfectly match the character of the Pagani Huayra.

Performance is written in the DNA of Mercedes-AMG and the bespoke M158 engine for the Huayra is at the peak of AMG performance engines, with a power output of over 700hp and a torque figure that exceeds 1000Nm.

The M158 had to be a small, light engine, turbo-charged but with the throttle response of a normally aspirated engine. In a car that weights less than 1.400 kg it is vital that the engine responds to the slightest input made by the driver’s right foot. The design of the turbocharger and intake system is a result of these requests.

A dry sump lubrication with 2 scavange pumps and one pressure pump guarantees that the engine lubrication is ensured during the harshest driving conditions. The M158 is designed to withstand sustained lateral accelerations of over 1.7 G.

Performance for Mercedes-AMG and Pagani means also every-day performance. The M158 is as reliable as any other Daimler engine and encourages the passengers to focus on the essential, the joy of driving.

The AMG test drivers have taken the worst to give future Pagani Huayra owners the best, travelling the continents from the arctic circle in Sweden to Death Valley USA, to make sure that the M158 is a performer also in the unlikeliest of conditions it may ever encounter.

The Pagani Huayra sets a new benchmark in fuel economy and CO2 emissions in 12 cylinder mid engines sportscars with the fuel economy in the NEDC (new European driving cycle) of about 13 l/100km.

One man-one engine. A selection of skilled master mechanics will individually handcraft each single production engine for the Huayra, a commitment to Mercedes-AMG’s tradition of precision and quality. Each engine is dyno tested for almost half an hour in all engine speed and load conditions at the test rig for performance and quality characteristics before being dispatched to Pagani for the final marriage with the car.
Handcrafted precision, dynamic performance, Passion. Mercedes-AMG shares these values with Pagani Automobili."
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I'm very happy Luca didn't go down the V8 twin turbo route. Turbos lack the feel and sound of an naturally aspirated engine.

 

Audi?

Audi aren't V12's and their LMP1's are Diesels.

HP is a friend, his cars are wonderful and they are very fast around the NS for one lap but the future of Endurance racing as clearly shown by the ACO 2014 LeMans rules is very clearly about fuel efficiency and as long as the laws of physics remain in place, under those new rules, a V12 has NO chance at LeMans, or any other endurance race. You don't care and some love the FF. I do and I don't.

 

The feel of turbos is a LOT different than it was. The new system we're investigating with Magnetti Marelli TERS that will be used in F1 will place a ceramic motor on the main turbo shaft. Energy that would otherwise go up the waste gate will now spin the ceramic motor to hundreds of thousands of revs generating electrical energy that would other wise be lost up the waste gate. This added to braking recapture will make a huge difference. Last year in our 24 using KERS our race MPG was 10% higher. With TERS it could be 15-20% higher. The effect that 20% more fuel efficiency could have on the world's energy consumption is very significant.

The other interesting thing about TERS is that it totally eliminates turbo lag.

Ferrari F1 will be turbo. They're testing V6 Turbos in California's. There's light at the end of the tunnel and it's not New Jersey.

 

Fair enough. Good to stick to your guns. Wish I was there also ;o)

I initially thought the ever tightening emissions and efficiency regulations were over the top. Now I think they are one of the best things to have ever happened to the modern motor industry. As a result Innovation and development is pushing ahead like never before.

Exciting times.

Alex

 

Very interesting. Exactly my point regarding R&D pushing ahead in earnest.

 

The Audi V10s are very desirable road cars. Are we talking track in this supercars thread? Supercars are not track cars. Ferrari builds track cars and they don't call them supercars.

If you're talking track cars, then that's another story. A quad turbo ceramic 2-cylinder 30,000 rpm hybrid might be a good LeMans car. But I sure wouldn't want that for the road.

 

I don't want to derail here, but:

Very interesting indeed Jim. The real limiting factor in these F1 engines will be fuel allotment, which per the research I've seen is keeping power just a shade under 700bhp, but that power figure can be had at either 15k rpm which is max revs OR 10.5k rpm. I believe Adrian Newey was dead right they other day when he stated 2014 on will be more of an engine battle then anything else as I truly believe each manufacturer is going to have something different going on in terms of where and how the power will be delivered.


Ferrari seem to have a good hand on testing. Mercedes, Renault, Cosworth, and Pure (if they get back on track) should have some interesting solutions as well, especially Mercedes who have some excellent resources to pull from with regards to their turbo development and already have the best KERS system (built by Zytec) on track.

 

not a bad way to go for designing a supercar, is it?

I know the story. It is about Eugenio Castellotti. There are many stories about the ruthlessnes and disregard for human life of mr. Ferrari. I have no idea what is true and what is not. On the other hand he seemed to be genuinenly devastated by the death of Dino and later on Gilles. There is this picture on the internet that tells a haunting story. Mr. Ferrari in lively conversation with Luigi Musso, Alfonso de Portago, Eugenio Castellotti and Peter Collins. All of them killed in a competition Ferrari in the years 1957 and 1958. I don't care who you are, that has go to leave a scar somewhere.

It is not really up to us be a judge of character where mr Ferrari is concerned.

I am getting way off topic here.

I'd say not only Luca but also the facts agree with me. Like I said, current Ferrari V12's are still very relevant in 2012. Apparently McLaren doesn't know how to built a V12 that is truly up to date. They aren't building their own F1 engines, so maybe that is something? How the engine in the F70 will stack up against the competition, is something that remains to be seen.

Now I am lost. You do know the 'P' in LMP1 stands for 'prototype'? Why would anyone want to compete with a road legal car in the LMP class? I believe a production number of 100 cars make the car eligable for the GT class?

Either way, Ferrari has no interest in competing in LMP at Le Mans. The F70 will therefor not be built with that in mind. So I am not sure why you would want to critizise the F70 for not being a true contender in LMP. It will also be without chance in Paris Dakar, for exactly the same reason, Ferrari has no interest in competing in that event.

on that we can agree

 

??

You said:

"I guess Mercedes, Pagani and Audi are bad too."

Those aren't V 12's.

As for road cars what works on the Race course will of course find it's way to road cars.

Always has always will.

Ferrari isn't putting KERS on their new Supercar just to make it faster. They're doing it to make it more fuel efficient and keep the pitch fork carrying PC'ers at Bay.

 

when you put your foot down on the pedal, you wish for a V8? I don't think so...

 

The quotes are from the person Mr. Ferrari made them to.

I still don't see them as being classy.

If one changes a road car into a race car that has a completely different body and adds TERS it becomes a Prototype LMP1 as our road F430 Scuderia became an EXP 1 Prototype.

I agree that Ferrari has no interest in finishing first overall at Le Mans as they haven't since 1965 and that unlike McLaren whose last supercar did finish first overall at Le Mans, haven't designed their new supercar with that in mind.

I'm not sure how the V 12 FF proves that V 12's are relevant.

V 12's are cool. I understand their attraction but I agree with Antony that they are dinosaurs. If the new Enzo had a TT V8 it would be lighter and faster around a track which matters to me and doesn't to Bill.

 

Totally true. Because of fuel allotment the key will be engine design in F1, Sportscar Racing, and for road cars because of MPG emission requirements.

I wish Ferrari had made the New Enzo with a road version of the 2014 F1 engine as they put an F1 based engine in the F50. That's one I'd want. When JT was CEO of Ferrari I met with him at the factory and we discussed the next Enzo. At the time he wanted a 1000 kilo small TT car. When Luca came back things changed to a V 12 that will weigh a bit more than 1000 kilos.

 

I like F 40's very much.

As an aside that's the one Mr. Ferrari made the remark about ****ting one's pants when the driver "puts his foot down".

 

Indeed, then it becomes a prototype. Still don't see how that would fit onto a roadlegal car winning LMP1. Also don't see why McLaren would want to enter a P12 to race in LMP with a completely different body and I doubt they ever will.

Even in 1995 the 'true' prototypes were much faster then the Mac. The winning car was 9th on the grid, 11 seconds slower than the pole sitter. There were no factory entrants. I don't want to take anything away from the McLaren F1 GTR as being an iconic racingcar, but a little perspective is apparently in order.

Don't forget the F12berlinetta. Both cars are evidence of the relevance of V12's because both engines are deemed to be cutting edge in terms of engineering and driveability. There are always choices to be made and perhaps in the future Ferrari opts for a different technical layout, but as to say V12's are things of the past, is in total disregard of the present.

They are dinosaurs once they can no longer deliver. If Mclaren feels they can't built a V12 that delivers exactly what the costumer wants, than I can understand they call it a dinosaur. Ferrari see it differently. Perhaps partly because of the heritage, but that didn't prevent them from building a V12 that perfectly meets todays standards. Surely, that is something to applaud them for?

 

That's very interesting. But are you sure that the decision of not using turbo engine is due to simple CEO decision? Or that the testing didn't came with the results that they want?!

 

I'm quite sure it's purely a marketing/heritage decision. Luca feels that a V12 is very important for Ferrari and will set the new Enzo apart from the 918 and P12 and that Ferrari's customers expect it especially as Ferrari has invested so much in the FF and F12 and a TT V8 Supercar would be funny in light of the FF and F12. There is no question that a TT V8 car would be lighter and more nimble. V12 P 4/5 is a truck compared to V8 P 4/5 C as an Enzo is to a 458. I still think that if the new Enzo's engine was 2014 F1 based that would have worked image wise making the FF and F12 Gentleman GT's but that F1 engine isn't ready yet and Ferrari probably wanted to get the New Enzo out now as the 918 and P12 are out/coming out soon.

The P12 will be at Paris and some say the New Enzo will be too. Reliable sources have told me the P 12 will be about 2596-2700 lbs. dry. Ferrari sources have mentioned the weight of the new Enzo at 2750-3000 lbs dry. Both are from good sources but definetley not official.