747-8: Flight Report

Well, after a few years of waiting, I finally got to fly the new -8. When I say fly, I was actually the extra captain on the flight. On the LAX Tokyo run we fly with 2 captains and an FO. So I haven't actually hand flown it yet. But I do an extra captain trip back to Tokyo on Monday, and then I fly as PIC Tokyo LAX on Thursday and as PIC LAX SFO on Saturday. So I'll actually have some hands on time and 2 landings a week from now.

I realize here on FChat we have a diverse flying community with all levels of flying experience. So I'll try and give viewpoints and differences from the 747-400 as well as just a general view.

I'll save most of the review until after I actually T/O and land it.

So far, it's an impressive airplane. Although it doesn't look much bigger when sitting on the ramp, it seems quite a bit larger up close. The engines seem huge. Of course they're nowhere near the size of a 777 motor. I believe it's now the longest commercial airliner in the world, but not 100% sure of that stat.

Here's a few pics....

More to follow next week. Bob, thanks for the "hotdog" invite in SEA. Unfortunately, all the training was inhouse in Tokyo. I may go pickup the next airplane in Seattle in December though....
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Nice pictures.

The 747-8 is the longest A/P that Boeing has ever built.
Per Wiki, so accuracy may be off somewhat,

Overall length,
747-8, 250.20 feet.
A380, 238.60 feet.

If I find a better source for specs I'll post them up.

 

I am interested in your impression of the flightdeck upgrades over the -400.

 

From what I found on the web:

Looks like the B-777-300 is 242'4"
The Airbus A340-600 is longer 246'11"
And the B-747-8 is now the longest at 250'2"

As far as avionics, there are a lot of improvements even though the cockpit looks essentially the same.

Improvements:

1: ND's (Navigational Displays) Both the Capt and FO ND's are now MFDs (Multi function displays) so you can use them to show system info, checklists, etc. A nice feature.

2: ECL (Electronic Checklist). Very nice. Easy to use and really spoils you. Even after 1 flight! No need to fumble for the right checklist, just push the button and have it displayed on either the lower EICAS or left or right MFD.

3: ATC Data block. Typically when flying across the Pacific and other regions with CPDLC (Controller Pilot Data Link Comm), we communicate with ATC via "text messages". We type what we want and send it. Clearances are obtained that way too. On the 400 we view them on the FMS. On the -8, you can view them on the FMS, but they also show up on the upper EICAS. A very nice feature. I'll take a pic of what it looks like and upload it after tomorrows flight.

4: VSD (Vertical Situation Display). A nice feature, although on the -8 it doesn't show up too well. On the 787 with 15 inch LCD's I'm sure it's great. But on the smaller LCD's we have, it's quite cluttered. I'll submit a pic in Tokyo after tomorrows flight.

5: Airport Map. A picture is worth a thousand words here. Again, I'll post one tomorrow night. Basically you can use the ND to taxi. It should save some confusion.


Aside from the cockpit, the upper deck is a huge improvement with more legroom for the 6 seats. The seats recline almost horizontally as well. The 2 bunks are identical as the 400, but the matress seems softer.

Tomorrow it's LAX to Tokyo as extra captain duty. Then Thursday I'm PIC Tokyo LAX. Saturday PIC, LAX to SFO. I can't wait to get my hands on the yoke.

 

Wow, I thought all of the airlines had gone to two FOs and one Capt.

 

I'm guessing all the ones in the US have. Maybe most international airlines as well. But in Japan, there isn't really a program for it. To act as PIC, you have to be fully trained as PIC. Even if it's for cruise flight. So the extra captain is a full captain. There was talk a few years back about having 2 FO's, but it never materialized.

On the -8, it's pretty much 3 captains flying together right now. The captains received the training first. One is nominated PIC, one FO, one "extra captain". FO's are now receiving training, so it will be back to normal ops soon.

We also fly Tokyo LAX with only one crew...Capt and FO. 9 1/2 hrs! We can legally fly 12 hrs with only 2 guys. Not sure if anyone else is doing that....

 

Is the 747-8 the same type rating as the -400?

As for the two FO thing, I believe the US carriers type one (or both) of the FOs and thus they are all "captains" even though only one guy (the real Captain) is actually getting paid as a Captain-- which we all know is the important thing.

 

Lou, sighting down the leading edge of the wing in that beautiful shot of the wing and engines I can see that they kept the washout in the -8 wing. You can see the break in the line of the leading edge outboard of the number one strut. I'm not privy to what they (my old group) are doing now on the 747-8 but it appears that what worked on the -100 & -400 is still good for the -8. From what I hear, that is a great airplane. Maybe it's because I did a little work on the 747-500,-600 that carried over to the -8. I envy you and the hotdog offer still stands if you get to this area some time.
Switches

 

Hi Lou,

Those are nice shots, thank you.

Lino

 

Yeh, I noticed that as well. Without viewing down the wing, you'd never know it was there.

I just finished 2 flights as PIC. It's an awesome airplane. A true dream to fly. I'll post some pics later...

 

Notice anything different or unusual about the engine?
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The landing gear has larger tires. The airplane sits a few inches higher...
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Random shots
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Just.... wow. 747 is the best aircraft ever built IMO. I'd give a body part to
ride along in the cockpit on a flight. I have a poster of the original 747 over my
office desk. She's been my favorite aircraft since I was a kid....

Totally cool Lou! Thanks for posting!

Jedi

 

Yeh, it would be great if we could take "ride alongs". I flew the original "classic" and have that poster too. So much different than todays cockpits. Amazing how many switches and dials there were.

I'll post a write up on what it feels like to fly it later....

 

REALLY looking forward to that Lou... thanks!

Jedi

 

It looks as if the core of the engine spins in the opposite direction as the fan.

Geffen

 

That's how you get compression There is a shaft within a shaft, the outer is the high pressure shaft while the inner is the low pressure shaft. The incoming air is run through a series of stators in between the rotors and compressed as it flows through the engine.. I don't know what I'm talking about but it sure sounds technical. It's sort of a a suck-squeeze-bang-blow thing.

 

Lou, thanks for the beautiful photos that you are taking of this bird. It gets my ol' heart pumping to get back to work on that fabulous airplane. I'm now what they call an old " Incredible", one of the original crew that got the first 747 out the door and the effort was not a pleasant experience. You're a lucky man to fly the ultimate expression of the airplane. It will endure for a long time.

 

jedi, I'm working on a 4 foot long profile of 747 number one, PAA. The painting will go into the line of paintings of the most important Boeing airplanes. So far in work, B&W, B-40, F4B4, P-26, 314,307, 367-80, 707,757 BA,767,747 PAA, 747 BA, and KC-46. I don't sit around much.

 

Yeh, that's it. Maybe other engines are like this too. But it's the first I've flown where the N1 (low pressure turbine) and N2 (high pressure turbine) spin opposite each other.

 

My first flight....

My first actual PIC trip was from Tokyo (Narita) to Los Angeles. We leave Narita around 10am and end up in LAX around 3am. In the summer, there's not much of a tailwind component, making the trip around 9 and 1/2 hours. This particular flight had almost no wind, so flight time was scheduled a little over 10 hours. As we went over the flight plan in dispatch, I immediately checked the gross weight (picture 1). As you can see, the max allowable gross takeoff weight is 987,000(MTOW). With the payload of 264,000 lbs, we were planned at 986,600 for takeoff(PTOW). NICE! I'd get to fly it doing what it's designed to do. Just for reference, the MTOW on the 747-400 is 875,000. So the -8 is approximately 100,000 lbs heavier at max takeoff weight.

Engine start in the -8 is fully automatic. The EEC (electronic engine control) protects the whole start envelope. It's almost the same in the 400, except the 400 doesn't monitor N1(fan) rotation or oil pressure. The engines take a little bit longer to start then the 400. Possible due to the big N1 fan blades.

Taxiing is a little different. The brakes seem smoother. Possibly because it's a brand new airplane, possibly because the tires are a little bigger. I flew our 400's when the were brand new also, so I'm guessing it's the tire size. As the new -8 is a few inches taller than the 400, I'm guessing it's the tires that give it that extra few inches. The fuselage is the same cross section and I believe the tail is identical. I'm digging here, but I believe the 400 tires are "49"s and the -8 has "52"s. So maybe that's the height difference...

Although the -8 is only 18 feet longer, it feels bigger when taxiing. Let me explain that better. Obviously you can't see the plane behind you, nor can you really see the wings or engines. But the distance between the main gear and nose gear is different. I believe the mains are about 10 ft further aft. While taxiing in a straight line it doesn't make a difference, it does when turning. Those of you that fly larger planes understand this. Those flying smaller planes probably never really thought about it. As the airplane turns about the main gear, the distance between the nose gear and main gear makes quite a difference. When making a 90 degree turn, say onto a runway, we (in the cockpit) go well past the centerline before making the turn. This way the rest of the airplane is over the centerline. It takes a little time and experience to get it right, but after awhile it becomes second nature. That said, even knowing the -8 is longer and taking what you think is an extra 10 feet before turning, I ended up turning too early. No big deal, but it does feel a little different.

One other note on taxiing. Again, others with jet experience know this, but those flying smaller straight winged aircraft probably don't. An airplane with a swept back wing has an unusual characteristic when taxiing. Something you really don't have to worry about, but interesting. Say the aircraft has a 200 ft wingspan.... 100 feet on the left, 100 on the right. As you turn left or right, the wingspan on the opposite side "grows" or gets longer. Obviously the wing doesn't change shape, but the geometry of the wings swept vs the turn angle makes a difference. Say your taxiing along a wall with only a few feet clearance. As you turn away from the wall sharply, you'll hit the wall! I believe in the 747 the wing "grows" 6 feet. Again, something we never really need to think about, but interesting....

Takeoff next.......
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Lou, thanks a bunch for posting all this about the 747-8. I'm sure that all the other Av-Chatters enjoy it as much as I do. A while back I had to draw the geometry of the ground handling "tracks" of several airplanes, including the 747. If you extend the line of the axle of the swiveled nose gear until it meets the extended line of the main gear you will find the center of rotation of the wing tip. The tip is AFT OF THE MAIN GEAR and if you scribe an arc at the wing tip from the center of rotation, that tip will advance away from the stationary point as it follows the arc.
Something else that has to considered is wingspan growth when they have a full fuel load. They lose some of the dihedral by flexing downward and if they have a -400 type of tip device they rotate outward , increasing the total span by 3 to 4 feet.
Forgive me if you already know this stuff...it's still interesting to think about.

 

*Awesome* Lou, many thanks from me too for sharing. Fascinating stuff. [Potential "thread of the month" material?.....]

"Fully automatic start" - You hit a start button and "magic happens" on all four engines? [Hopefully, you've got a nice big, red, "Start" button on the steering wheel? ] Or do you (still?) bring them up one by one?

Cheers,
Ian
PS - The 400 start sequence doesn't monitor oil pressure?! - I guess you've got a few distinct oil pressure gauges you "keep an eye on" when lighting the fires?

 

Bob, that's really interesting how you find the center of rotation. I didn't know that.

I did realize about the flexing of the wings. I'm assuming the posted wingspan for say the 400 is at MGTOW. Would that be right?