guy on the pelican board recently purchased a 78 casablanca beige. very nice unusual color in person.
Photos posted on Pelican of the 79 Le Mans winning Porsche 935 at Monterey Historics. The 935 has been restored to 1979 Le Mans race trim since I saw it in the Indy museum in 2007. On the plaque, it's Interesting they chose to reference the 911s 15-year old design verses the 930 used for homologation. Also, they used 1952 (vs. 1953) as the last production-based car to win Le Mans before the Porsche 935. New plaque (photo at link) reads: Porsches 935 turbo, a high-powered version of the Porsche 911 road car, dominated endurance racing in the late 1970s, being entered by Porsche customer teams worldwide. The German-based Kremer team purpose-built this car to compete at Le Mans in 1979. The design mimicked the Evolution bodywork on the factory 935/78s and became the most successful 935 variant due to its technical advantage running an air/air intercooler instead the air/water units used by the Porsche factory. Using this highly modified version of the 935, the Kremer K3 managed an overall victory in heavy rain against the faster, pure sports car racing prototypes. Truly a remarkable success for a racecar based on a 15-year old road car design. It is the first and only production-based car to win Le Mans since 1952 a feet no other production-based car has achieved to this day. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/144507-more-935-favorite-photos-254.html
The 0-60 sec time listed for the 3 liter cars in the Excellence Magazine Porsche Buyer's Guide was based on Car & Driver's Dec 75 road test. Heres a list of 0-60 sec road test times for U.S. 3 liter cars and 78 - 79 3.3 liter cars: 3 liter Car & Driver, Dec 75, 0-60 4.9 sec Road & Track, Jan 76, 0-60 6.7 sec Road & Track, Jan 77, 0-60 6.7 sec 78-78 3.3 liter Car & Driver, Apr 78, 0-60 4.9 sec Road & Track, Jun 78, 0-60 5.0 sec Car & Driver, Aug 79, 0-60 5.4 sec The same 76 Turbo Carrera (VIN 9306800011) was used in both Road & Track and Car & Driver road tests. This same cars (VIN 9306800011) acceleration was panned by the writer in the Sep 2012 issue of Excellence Magazine: The 930 on boost is exciting, but there is no doubt that time has made the original 930s acceleration less impressive than it must have been in 1976. Today, a stock 930 much as this feels merely quick but far from gut-wrenchingly fast. A 10-year old, 2.0-liter WRX feels about as quick, and on-paper numbers say it is. I would argue that a 0-60 sec time of 4.9 sec quoted in their price guide (from the Car & Driver, Dec 75 road test) is pretty fast even by todays standards.
Forgot to include Motor Trends 3 liter road test from Apr 76. They did use a different car in their road test. 3 liter Car & Driver, Dec 75, 0-60 4.9 sec Road & Track, Jan 76, 0-60 6.7 sec Motor Trend, Apr 76, 0-60 6.1 sec Road & Track, Jan 77, 0-60 6.7 sec 78-78 3.3 liter Car & Driver, Apr 78, 0-60 4.9 sec Road & Track, Jun 78, 0-60 5.0 sec Car & Driver, Aug 79, 0-60 5.4 sec
Idart; Understood.. I did not see the earlier posted where you stated as posted above. And yes, I do agree with Steve and other that the 78-80 930 front rotors are "very similar" to the 917. Having had some experience in and around RSR's, 934/5, and the venerable 917.. I do know there are differences as noted between 930 & 917 brakes although very close in design. Last I heard.. maybe last year, Stoddard and/or Sunset Porsche had both rotors and calipers available for the 930. I'm not sure what stock on hand is at this point. This was the biggest point I was trying to make with my comments. Thank you Joe. I would say this is untrue. Although "molested" in other ways, my car is really early being #2 of the 78 US production run. It retains its original brakes which are 917 style floating rotors w/the original finned calipers.
You are welcome. I think there is too much focus on trying to link the road cars to the race cars, and accordingly quite a bit of 'stretching' ensues. ANY Porsche has a racing ancestry or linkage as evidenced by a proliferation of components that were originally tried & tested on the track. But, the fact remains that they are road cars and they should be celebrated as such.
"onboost: Last I heard.. maybe last year, Stoddard and/or Sunset Porsche had both rotors and calipers available for the 930. I'm not sure what stock on hand is at this point." You may be correct that the Porsche dealers see these parts as not stocked (NS) verses no longer available (NLA). Theres a thread on a 78/79 floating rotor set that sold a while back on Pelican for $4,500. Unclear from this post if the floating rotor brakes for the 78/79 930s are NS or NLA but nontheless, they are very difficult to find. Adding to the problem is that Porsche 911 owners are using 930 floating rotors and calipers making these parts even more in demand. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-used-parts-sale-wanted/657839-fs-930-brake-system-complete-all-nib.html "onboost: I would say this is untrue. Although "molested" in other ways, my car is really early being #2 of the 78 US production run. It retains its original brakes which are 917 style floating rotors w/the original finned calipers." Awesome that you have #2 of the 78 U.S. production run! You can dispel the rumor that the very early 78s had ATE calipers. "onboost, I would check the production date of this car.. one thing to keep in mind is that this is a euro car. As 930 production did not cease in 79, (only importation to the US) a euro-spec 80 may very well have had floaters on it depending upon production date." Agree, according to the Porsche maintenance and tech manuals, the ROW 80 930s were also equipped with the 917 style floating rotors brakes up front.
Nice that your 1176 still had the front floating rotors. Whether or not a U.S. 78-79 930 was modified probably depended on the Porsche+Audi dealer's stock of floating rotor parts at the time (very easy for Porsche auto mechanics to modify to the 1-piece 930 rotors and delete the 21mm spacers). The Porsche 911 SC, Turbo 3.3, 78, 79, 80, 81 Technical Specifications booklets detail the modification to the 1-piece hats: Since the beginning of production of the 1981 models the front wheel brake disc to hub connection has been changed on the Type 911 Turbo. Instead of the old connection with flange and ring, it has been changed to the brake disc shell connection. Deleted parts: Brake flange, ring, M6 screws with lockplates, spacer (21mm). http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp269/carrlane/930tech1.jpg http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp269/carrlane/930tech2.jpg
Hi everybody, I am new here so let me introduce myself: my name is John and I live in West Vancouver in BC. Just a week ago I bought myself the last 1978 930 produced for NA market; VIN 9308800461. Outside is completely stock, except wheels, with original paint. Inside is nicely modified and it runs like an airplane without wings. It can be seen here: http://www.cvluxurycars.com/1978Porsche930-SlateGrayonGray-28kmiles.htm I am learning about this beast as much as I can. My previous Porsche was a 2002 996 and boy, this is totally new experience. Tomorrow I am going to have an alignment done and I will need to get the missing external oil cooler shield, investigate why the brake warning light stays on (no leaks, plenty of fluid and brakes work fine) and adjust throttle linkage (too much freeplay).
welome. nice looking car and paint to sample. when my wife and i were in Vancuover BC about 3-4 years ago, we stopped in a Porsche dealer there and they said they have not seen a 930 in years in that area. if you want to get a lot of good technical support on the car, check out the 930 board on Pelican parts.
Brake section in the May 19, 1979 issue of Motor magazine, Star Road Test, Porsche 3.3 Turbo, "Porsche's most expensive model has breathtaking acceleration and a top speed of 160 mph, matched by superb handling and brakes...: A car that can go as quickly as a Porsche Turbo needs to be able to stop in a hurry as well. To achieve this, internally ventilated and cross-drilled discs have been fitted as a part of a system which has a front/rear circuit split and (to mildly raised eyebrows from some Porsche fanatics) servo assistance. We certainly found the servo unobtrusive, and it takes a lot of the effort out of deceleration, as our stop from 30 mph of more than 1.0 g for a pedal pressure of only 75 lb shows clearly. The effectiveness of the brakes is illustrated by our maximum deceleration stop from 70 mph: astoundingly, it stopped in 174 feet, the equivalent of .9g. Our new fade test (consisting of 20 stops from, in the case of the Turbo, 100mph, at intervals of 45 sec), is stiffer than it used to be, but the Porsche came through it with no problems other than a faint smell of pad material after nine stops, and a slight rise in required pressure which eventually settled back to normal again. Impressive that a road-going car could stop 20 times from 100mph in 45 second intervals with no fade. A testimony to Motors test car, a 79 930 with front floating rotors (developed on the track and put on a road car to reduce heat and prevent brake fade). http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp269/carrlane/79motor1.jpg
June 1978, Autocar - one of the few period publications that contrasted the dramatic performance difference between the 3 liter and 3.3 liter 930s. The 1978 magazine article also stretched the 917 brake analogy since we know the 917 style brakes were modified for the street 78 930 Fuchs (calipers embossed with Porsche, new wheel hub and spacer). Understandably, bigger brakes are needed and those straight from the 917 racer, ventilated and cross-drilled suffice. The useful 40-60 mph acceleration time in second gear now falls to 2.1 sec from 2.9 sec for the 3-litre car, while 60-80 mph in the 110 mph third gear takes only 3.5 sec, and advance of close on 2.0 sec. But perhaps the most graphic mid-range improvement occurs just as the turbocharger gets to work in top gear. Down comes the 50-70 mph time from 11.4 sec to 7.2 sec and 60-80 mph from 9.7 sec to an impressive 6.2 sec. http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp269/carrlane/930autocar.jpg
For better low speed acceleration. The stock 4 speeds were geared for high speed Autobahn cruising. The problem is the 5 speed trans weren't designed to take that kind of torque. It won't last long under hard use. Ruf developed a 5 speed conversion that was up to the task. Now rare and expensive. I use to tell my wife to drive our stock '78 like a semi automatic. It had enough torque to go from 25-80 in 2nd gear, up to 120-125 in 3rd. Andial use to offer a shorter (8:39) r&p as a solution. I have one in my '79, makes a world of difference.
I think you have identified the source from whence the much-aforementioned erroneous notion that 3.3 cars have "917 brakes" originally emerged!! And how often has a magazine scribe from the 70s been known to perpetuate myth with information that was aimed at dramatic reading copy rather than accuracy? I submit that erroneous magazine reporting is the source of 75% of all mythical automotive lore Or shall we call that automotive stretching? By the way the "3.3's 917 brakes" was mentioned to Jurgen Barth and the response was a laugh. A hearty one at that. When I researched magazine copy for my book on those Italian cars http://joesackey.com/the-lamborghini-miura-bible/, I learned that anything written in the 60s & 70s should be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism at worst and thoroughly cross-research at best. Furthermore, magazines of the era were notorious for sourcing cars that were lacking or even skewering the numbers in order to make a point. Also, I totally reject the notion that the performance differences between the 3.0 & 3.3 cars is "dramatic". That would be anther stretch Certainly not on the road, unless you want to kill yourself & or others to find out. Ive driven multiple examples of both and on the road the differences are very slight. Let's not get carried away, these are road cars. I agree that on the track the performance differences will be significant. Having said that I would love to see a correctly-tuned standard 3.0 & 3.3 tested today under ideal circumstances and have those performance numbers measured electronically. I bet the differences today will not be so dramatic. My fully-restored & rebuilt 3.0 hardly feels any different to a nice 3.3 that I recently drove in performance terms. FWIW, I think there is all too much discussion about what makes 3.3 cars stop, rather than what makes them go! Or what makes them interesting or desirable for that matter.
Peace Joe - being a Yankee, I didn't realize Autocar was an unreliable publication. Than being said, I personally enjoy looking through vintage magazines, books and Porsche brochures/maint/tech manuals to see what they had to say about these great cars (performance, turbo-boost, drivability, brakes, etc.). If not these vintage pubs, what source(s) should we use to highlight the differences (beyond the easy to identify visual cues) between the 930 models?
I absolutely agree with you, these period magazines are very invaluable, and that's why I maintain such a big collection myself. Having said that, I find that they are most valuable for restoration & refurbishment to original spec because as the saying goes: pictures don't lie. Well, pre-photoshop pics anyway The illustrations are invaluable too, because they are what they are. But I find the written text of 70s & 80s mags must be cross-referenced with contemporary received wisdom, and not just UK publications alone! USA ones too. They were mostly correct of course, but wrong often enough to make one wonder what editing standards were back in the day.
Makes sense - we should cross-reference vintage pubs with contemporary wisdom. I did always use quotes in this thread when I referenced vintage pubs (with a few typos here and there). I've never seen an article in any publication (even contemporary) that compare the 3 liter and '78/79 3.3 liter cars (a lot I've posted in this thread compare the '78/79 to '86 930's).
It would be interesting to find out how many U.S. 78/79 930s were sent to the junk yard. Here are a few '79's that were crashed and left for dead. I think the numbers that went to the salvage yard might be very high perhaps 20, 30 or even 40 percent? Thoughts? http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp269/carrlane/930junk8.jpg http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp269/carrlane/930junk1.jpg http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp269/carrlane/930junk2.jpg http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp269/carrlane/930junk3.jpg http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp269/carrlane/930junk4.jpg http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp269/carrlane/930junk5.jpg http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp269/carrlane/930junk6.jpg http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp269/carrlane/930junk7.jpg http://www.salvage-cars-for-sale.info/salvage/porsche/930/for-sale/
Perhaps an even better U.S. Turbo showdown would be: 76-77-3 liter/78-79-3.3 liter/86-88-3.3 liter/89-3.3 liter/M505. Of course this Turbo showdown is a pipe dream (no pun intended) since finding unmodified U.S. '76-79 cars for the comparison would be challenging as most have modified exhausts (sans the thermal reactors).
Joe, I'm not being flippant but does Jurgen Barths 3-volume Porsche book have a detailed section on the production 930s? It has been on my list to buy and Ive heard awesome things about it. Ive referenced Michael Cottons Porsche 911 Turbo book many times in this thread but have not found a more definitive source for technical details for the production '78/79 930's.
Honestly, I don't know! I first was introduced to JB about 7 years ago when I was researching the manufacture & history of my prototype USA 930. JB was invaluable and I guess my direct contact with him has caused me to forget about acquiring that book so I'm in the same position as you.
