Classiche Certified Replacement Block

More importantly, what happened pre Classiche ? How many 'replacement' blocks were re stamped and nobody other than the owner at the time was aware ? How many ORIGINAL cars are out there that have had this done ? The only difference I see with the Classiche route is that it is open and above board.......

Value wise it has to affect the car but by how much I cant tell. Its why many GTO's SWB's etc that are raced have had their engines mothballed and run with a rebuilt GTE engine in competition.

 

True and true. I was once told by one of our crew that the most valuable set of tools he had were a set of factory stamps. Seriously.

CW

 

So did an owner of a particular GTO get a break on the insurance after they got a replacement block after a small "fender bender"?

 

I don't see the issue IF the car comes with the original damaged block.

Now if the cars original engine was sold/lost ect and is in another car well that would be an issue.

I don't understand the replacement of these blocks anyway, all were aluminum right? And aluminum is endlessly repairable so why buy a new block when you can have it repaired. I've seen 10k$ big block Chevy blocks we used in drag racing that had the main webbings blown out of the bottom and the pistons spit out of the side repaired to the point you couldn't tell it had ever been damaged for 3k$ vs a new one and ran fine for years with no issues why can't these be repaired?

 

The ability to repair is constantly improving, so I would NEVER toss an original block. But, even today, some damage is not yet reparable. Fire damaged blocks may have metallurgical issues and so on. So, it depends, as does everything!

CW

 

I know cars where the original damaged parts have been melted and recast into "repaired" parts...

In the past it was easier to keep things like this quiet. Now before you finish having at some Bimbo your wife see's it on Utube.

 

Slightly off topic, but in the spirit:

A few years ago, the BUELL motorcycle company offered
for sale a special racer that would compete in a class requiring
a "stock block." The rules wording allowed for "modicifations,"
but you had to start with the original block and go from there.

At the public model introduction, a factory representitive of
one of the "bigs," (read: Japanese, like Honda, Yamaha, etc)
noticed that the block in question seemed to be "bigger"
in some areas, while having a "cast finish"
to the surface of the block.

Initially, it was speculated that blocks had been welded,
and refinished to hide the welding.

The Buell folks admitted that they took a bunch of "original blocks."
melted them down, and re-cast them as "original blocks."

The bikes ran well, and won the national championship in their class.

 

except all TDF and a lot of SWB were (and in some cases still are) racing cars - and lets be brutally honest here, race engines blow - sometimes irreparably

 

http://www.barchetta.cc/english/all.ferraris/detail/0787gt.250gt.tdf.htm

So where do you think this blown motor went? IN 1959!!!!



What do you do with race cars that lost engines early on ?

Few successful cars maintained their original engines in period.
Swaps were common, along with factory overstampings.
Some motors reunited with the cars they came, from later in life.

We do not live in a perfect world.

A Classiche block is one of many possible solutions

 

not quite sure what your point is here tom, please clarify

 

In the past, I have seen the "cast or stamped" numbers cut
away from the original block, and welded to another block.

If the DOT or FBI "acid-checked" the numbers,
they would come up genuine.

The block, of course, was not.



Now, modern blocks have concealed "numbers" that can be seen,
but are different than the serial number, sometimes several sets.

Law enforcement can "relate" all the numbers, owners cannot......

 

Our modern Race car is made from two cars. We also have extra engines, gearboxes and bodies. We have kept an exact log of everything that we did and interestingly as we're going for an FIA World Championship there is a LOT of scrutiny of our logs. When her racing days are over our car and her re-assembled donor will stay together along with all her used and unused spares. As we're now an FIA Constructor we can Classiche ourselves which is helpful. While Tom is generally right we own two Le Mans race cars that have their original chassis, engine, gearbox, and bodies that they last raced with in 67 (0854 and J6) so original race cars do exist.

 

For LeMans do you know how many, if any, spare engines did SEFAC have for the team when 0854 ran? How were the engines marked?

Jeff

 

How do you acid test numbers? Most of the acid testing stories are pure folklore. Shaved numbers can in some cases be lifted from guns made of steel. It is a labor intensive process and the piece or at least the stamping will be permanently destroyed in the process.

Splashing acid on an engine block and then miraculously seeing something belongs to same category with using tea leaves. Too much Matlock.

 

Ken, your Emails makes sense and you have given me food for thought. Many thanks.

 

The ex Rob Walker/Stirling Moss 250 GT SWB Berlinetta Competizione c/n 2735GT, one of the most famous Ferraris of all time has a Classiche engine.

http://www.barchetta.cc/english/all.ferraris/detail/2735gt.250gt.htm

 

If it didn't it would be worth a lot more.

 

Bri-Mar Laboratories in the US have used this process on a few Ferrari's. As you say it is not always successful, and the stamping can be permanently destroyed if the work is not done correctly or to many times. But it does work sometimes.

 

...and a lot more again if it had its original body.

 

As Tom pointed out, if we're talking about an old race car, you must be open to the possibility that it has a replacement engine. If the car in question had won LeMans, and had a replacement block because it's original was lost, I don't think it would make any difference to the price. The car's hisory would trump the replacement block issue.

I think with street cars, it may be a different issue. A replacement block can be indicative of the way the car was treated during it's life. That could have implications as to what condition the other components are in. Say a replacement block is in a car because the original was corroded beyond repair. Surely the rest of the car could not have escaped unharmed, as well. I guess what I'm trying to say is, it depends.

George

 

Jim,
where do you post the back-stories?

George

 

Thank you all for the great replies and discussion on this thread. I think its a really important topic and one which should be more transparant. I think this discussion has helped me and others understand the fine points of engine originality versus correct engine but a replacement block and the implications a replacement block might have.

 

Hi

have a look at page 1 post 13 - thats a new Classiche Block from the factory:

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=280041

Just before i bought my car (07333) it spent its life as a matching numbers 275GTB, when it was sent for Classiche the internal number did not match the block stamp 07333 (Marcel had also spotted this on previous occasions) - it was sent back to the factory and re-stamped with the correct number - also belonging to shotnose 275GTB - so at least it was a correct type 213 engine.

I then contacted the owner of the chassis belonging to that engine - he was under the impression his car was already a matching number example. Obviously it wasn't as i had the engine that belonged to his car originally in 1965!

His internal numbers were sent off for inspection, sure enough it was not matching. I then found out what his engine should be - turns out it belongs to a 275GTB chassis in France, that is also portrayed as a matching number 275GTB!

I get the feeling this investigation will go on and on and surprise a lot of owners in the process.

Page 26 onwards on my threads shows the strip down of the engine that was in the car - i still have the block (re-stamped to the correct number by the factory) and all the internals that i have not used on my rebuild with the new classiche block.

go towards the last few pages of the thread you will see the engine build coming to completion.

Old Ferraris - most of them have a story, i just went public with mine!

Given my car now has an original spare block in perfect condition with many internals, i think it compensates for the value of having a Classiche block fitted.

And yes i did try to match the engine to the correct chassis but the current owner of the other car did not want to pay what was a very very fair price for the block.

cheers Mark

 

Be a realist in your anaylization.

Many people that have and will comment in this FCHAT forum, are road car owner. These folks will NEVER own a historic race car of any marque. Yet, they have an opinion to share. Novices in the car collecting world.

Many true collectors that are actively involved, are not member of chat forums, and if they are they tend not contribute.

Go to Lemans Classic, see what under the hoods of ALL the entries.
Thats reality!