Classiche Certified Replacement Block

All that matters is full disclosure. Things happen over time and the work involved to sort and restore is massive. It's taken us 6 years to get 0854 back to original state as last raced at Brands Hatch.

Cheers

 

There are Fchatters who own and know a thing or two about Historic Race cars. Classic Le Mans isn't reality it's often pure fantasy. J6, 0854, and Dino Competitizione are pure reality of what they were on the Day that they made History.

 

Which semi-begs the question: which papers are more important? FIA or Classiche?

CW

 

Modern FIA papers for Vintage cars mean very little. Original FIA Homolagation papers for specific cars such as J6 that are as they were when the FIA issued them in 1967 mean a lot.

Original scrutineering documents for 0854 that match the stamps still affixed to her engine and gearbox mean something and a Bill of Sale from PF to Dino Competizione's first owner accompanied by PF's original FIVA certification of that car aren't bad either.

Classiche documents are what they are and some cases, 0818 for example are silly.

 

I wonder how the relationship is between Patrick Peter and Ferrari? Wasn't Peter essentially the originator of the Ferrari Historic Challenge? What happened when Ferrari took control?

Peter now has the Trofeo Nastro Rosso and ofcourse the Tour Auto, Le Mans Classic etc. I wonder what significance if any the Classiche certificate has to Peter.

 

Today's novices are tomorrow's experts and collectors.

Treat them like hell and the prices will come down and the "hobby" will die.

 

I predict only 15% percent of the novices will remain active (not chatting) and advance to the next level of collecting, 10 years from now. The rest will be taken out by either the 3 D's (death, divorce, destruction) or when, my personnal favorite, "investing in Ferraris" is no longer popular, due to lack of performance in the "collector's" portfolio.

Tree don't grow to the sky

 

I refer to post #18. Fine to replace internals but regarding the removed parts,"if in doubt, don't pitch them out".There are archivist,collector, mechanics who have done great things with discarded parts [such as T S]tongascrew

 

Using a Classiche correct replacement of any kind. What to do with the original,"if in doubt,don't pitch it out" tongascrew

 

For the time being there is a new group buying. Those who simply want to park cash into something they believe will appreiciate. Many will simply park cars in warehouses and then flip them to the next fool. For them Classiche has become the deal breaker/gold standard. Of course it will end in tears. It always does but for those who collect for passion what something really is and isn't is much more important than what Ferrari Classiche thinks it is or isn't.

 

If an original block is beyond repair which is the better approach?Install a rebuilt original period block or go Classiche? This of course can be applied to almost any original part. There is room here for a serious discussion which may never be resolved. There are many good options now available in repairing/rebuilding damaged blocks.Advances in aluminum alloy technology, I understand, have come along way. What to do with the original. You'v got it. "if in doubt don't throw it out" If nothing else a prospective buyer should be very interested in the seeing the original and being able to way the reasoning for replacing it. tongascrew

 

Still best I think to keep that original particularly if beyond repair. A well doccumented file to go with the replaced part evaluating the the final descision can be very valuable later on. tongascrew

 

"Beyond repair" is a monetary decision, rarely a technical statement.

 

I did ask the question but nobody answered about whether if Classiche only supply major parts like an engine block on an exchange basis and then retain or destroy the original. If so then the original parts couldn't be kept with the Classiche replaced part to possibly keep more value in the car. Presumably by the way people are speaking in this thread it is possible to retain the original major parts that Classiche replace. The reason I ask, and I know it's not the same, is that some of the major watch houses such as Rolex will only supply a new case for a watch on an exchange basis and they will retain the original to prevent a fake or another watch being built around the original case.

Also what kind of numbering system would be given to a replaced engine block?

 

It's my understanding they will produce parts, and, in the case of a s/n stamped part, it will carry an "R" stamping after the s/n to denote it is not the original part. I do not believe the original part is required to be presented to them.

But, if I am mistaken, anyone with better information can correct that.

CW

 

In the end, we're all dead. If you're not having fun, you're doing it wrong...

 

Hi, you pay your money you get your part, no exchange necessary - lots more available other than just engine blocks.

picture shows a classiche block numbering
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Thanks for your reply. So the 213 part of those numbers refer to the 275 2 cam (SOHC) engine type but what serial number do they give the block?

 

Patrick Peter was certainly not the originator of the Ferrari Historic Challenge. Jean Sage organised the Challenge in the early years. Very dear memories! Patrick had to run the Challenge as a business and that made a difference. When Ferrari took over it was different again if you understand what I mean.
Bart

 

Dear Kare, I am afraid you are not familiar with the process. Revealing a filed or ground away number can be done very succesfully by a forensic etching technique. It needs the proper
ingredients but above all a lot of skill and experience. Succes rate is very high. I know what I am talking about as I have been involved in more than one case.
Bart

 

Everyone has the right to spend his or her money as makes them happy.

But.
A lot of this smacks of revirginizing.

If a Classiche part keeps a car on the road in something like its original configuration and prevents another car from becoming scrapped for parts it's for the better. Pretending that this makes it an authentic original is disingenuous at best.

 

Very Good Post!

 

Corrected.

 

I'm the last person to throw a fit about total originality but Classiche blocks are, to me, no different than an "authorized fake", blessed by a company motivated by the orthodoxy of its bottom line rather than dedication to historic correctness.

All quantifiable data points for value aside, these cars are *prized* for their qualitative stories. The romance of a Ferrari being picked up at the port in '59, driven, raced and parked in a mid-century garage pulls at a lot of our heartstrings. Unlike any other part of these cars (which were largely built by sub-contractors back then), the engine was pure Ferrari and represents the perceived "soul" of that car. Knowing that the essence of the machine -- its V12 motor -- was cast and built in the modern era, not to power a gentleman racer's 250, but to serve Ferrari SpA's balance sheets, detracts from the romance, mightily.

That said, if the functional experience of driving the car is your sole focus, then it's far less of an issue. But then, driving a good GTE-based recreation with an original in-period engine might not be an issue either. Regardless, I'll agree with others: If you're paying for a "real" one, and if anything on that car should be original or at least period-correct, it's simply got to be that engine.

 

A blown, irreparable engine is the issue, though.

A NOS, in-period block v. a Classiche-cast replacement block? Either way, to get Classiche papers, you're going to have to have SpA's "blessing".

What we have been advised is that Classiche will "bless" the NOS, in-period block and make notations in their records that the original block has been replaced and the car now carries a new s/n block. They will certify that. In the alternative, they will also offer to cast a new block, stamp it accordingly with their stamp and certify that.

Not to mention that motors got (and get) swapped a fair bit at the race track. While records today are certainly better, who can say for certain today that motor number XXX was in chassis number YYY for a given race?

CW