Classiche Certified Replacement Block

I think your point is valid and I like how you put it in words. The engine of Ferrari is indeed the soul more than with any other car I think. So well said and thank you for your post.

 

Le Mans scrutinizing records do and include the stamps that were affixed by the scrutinizer. I have them for 1966 and 1967 for every car that raced in those races.

I also have the Ford Le Mans documents which clearly list the engines with stamps to verify them at Le Mans.

 

I knew this was going to be an interesting thread, thanks for all the input and to 275GTBSaran for posing the orginal question. Good luck in your search and fwiw, I choose 250 swb.

 

Sure, but you weren't actually there and likely didn't actually witness it, either. And, given who we're dealing with (the Old Man), I wouldn't have put it past him to have a couple of spare motors lying in the back of the trailer with identical stampings just in case.

We all have to trust the written documents at some point as being accurate, and I'm not suggesting they're not. I'm just saying that the evidentiary chain cannot be established without gaps along the way.

I can appreciate that a motor is an important piece of the value equation, but the more difficult and interesting question is what happens when that particular motor doesn't exist any longer for whatever reason. Does that materially impair the value of the car it's mated to? For some, surely. For others, not as much. For even others, not at all.

CW

 

The guy who was there stamped the motor and gearbox with own personal unique stamp in addition to noting all of Ferrari's stamps. The Stamps on 0854's engine and gearbox for example match that document and the unique stamps match as well. Period photo's also confirm History. I'm not sure it gets better than that.

 

It's also just one race. An important race, but nonetheless only one. There are others at which the scrutineers may not have been so meticulous, and not every car raced at Le Mans.

Regardless, I'm still of the opinion that as long as it is the correct type, I'm less concerned with whether it's THE motor or not. Especially in old race cars.

I can appreciate that there are the bluest of the blue chip cars, and some premium may be demanded and paid for such, however.

But, let me ask you what you would do in the event your motor lets go and cannot be salvaged. Then what?

CW

 

Funny enough how restorers get a free pass on replacing most of the bodywork and/or framework on a car and 90% of the engine of a car during restoration, but if that number doesnt match, then forget it- car is non original.

 

You can repair pretty much any damage that occurs to an engine block from a blow up. The only engines that can't be repaired are if the car burns to the point where the engine melts into a puddle of aluminum.

 

If you have the correct Type of engine in your car but not a matching number to the chassis, how does this differ to a new block sanctioned by Classiche ? Neither are original to the car so what is the point of Classiche to the owner ?

I have learned a lot from this thread and am now of the firm opinion that Classiche is a total waste of money and in the decades ahead will be considered meaningless.

 

Similar issues apply to bodywork too. Cut out loads of panels and fill a car with filler and it is still deemed to have it's original body? How does that work?

 

This is the million dollar question! Thank you for asking it. Very curious to hear answers...

 

Cough.. cough...

Cough.. cough...

Sorry Gents- had something stuck in my throat. Haven't formulated an opinion but this thread makes for an interesting read!

 

The engine type is 213
the new engine number is GP11 - they amend the records at the factory to reference that engine block to the chassis of the car.

Think GP11 stands for:

Gullible Person
pays
Gigantic Price
for
Genuine Part

 

Excellent !

 

I agree totally.

 

True.

 

Well said!

 

See Brian's post.

In my case I also have a LOT of original spares including all of the Factory P3/P3/4/412P/and P4 spares, the complete engine and gearbox that was in J6's sister J5 (the winning car) and the ability to repair, source or make anything that can be made or repaired. As an FIA Constructor anything I do to P 4/5 C KERS remains original.

The more important point is that everything I do is completely publicly disclosed as I do it so there will never be a question as to what any of my cars are or aren't.

Finally I have many original documents about many races my cars were entered in.

 

the certification side of it all yes totally.

still i do sorta like the facts they will make you parts though, even if they are massively overpriced and could be sourced elsewhere for far less £££ (or for the americans here, "far less $$$" - lol)

 

and sourced from the exact same source Classiche sources them
from.

 

Exactly...........From now on any Ferrari I advertise will clearly state..........THIS CAR DOES NOT HAVE CLASSICHE.......... There are plenty of bona fide Ferrari engineers in the UK who could very easily confirm originality to a prospective buyer at a tenth of the cost of the Ferrari Clasiche department. I am sure this applies world wide.

 

It would be interesting to hear a response from anyone directly associated with the Classiche department. I accept there are usually two sides to an argument but I genuinely cannot see the advantage of Classiche.......

 

Hi, the problem occurs, when an engine has been falsely re-stamped to make the car appear as a matching numbers example.

This generally only gets spotted when the engines internal number is reference against the engine stamped number - not many have access to that data.

Several factory connected individuals/dealers are in a position to make that call into Classiche, but the guys a Classiche will only tell you if your numbers match or not - they will not tell you what number your engine should be if it is a mis-match.

 

Lets take one step back though. Assume I am in the market for a vintage Ferrari and am going to spend more than $1m. Lets also assume that Ferrari Classiche does not exist. Who am I going to trust that the gearbox and engine, even if not original are original 'from the period'- so the correct engine type. Lets say I go to an expert here in Zurich of which there are many. They guarantee me that everything is correct. I will still want the ok from Ferrari itself. Even if they were late to the party and there are other competent people not from Ferrari, it is worth some sort of premium to me that the place of origin acknowledges that I have something correct. That is worth a certain amount, which is why Classiche also commands high prices for their parts.

Classiche will have role for people who are not experts and carry their own parts departments like Jim but want peace of mind. Especially today where people are buying cars not only to enjoy them but also to have an asset which will hold its value with time. That is why classiche is here to stay like it or not.

 

Classiche will have role for people who are not experts and carry their own parts departments like Jim but want peace of mind. Especially today where people are buying cars not only to enjoy them but also to have an asset which will hold its value with time. That is why classiche is here to stay like it or not.[/QUOTE]

That is a fair point but my argument has to be that the history of the majority of these cars ....those that had matching numbers when new...is well documented and there are plenty of dealers/ enthusaists/ previous owners whose opinion I would trust without resorting to the extortionate costs of Ferrari Classiche.

Say I had a car that had the correct type of engine with the wrong chassis number BUT the internal numero was out of sync.......Classiche would offer to build me a new block and stamp it with Classiche certified.........Would that add any value to the car to your investor ? The answer has to be NO....... You cannot create originality so why pay a huge sum of money vainly trying. There is an old adage.......The best cars are the ones without any stories.