SPORTS CAR MARKET BOXER REVIEW

The current (October 2012) issue of "Sports Car Market" has a review by Steve Ahlgrim of the 365 Boxer and auction sale of 1974 365 BB #18023 (silver with Boxer black bottom) at Artcurial in July for $199K. A couple of quotes:

"Boxer owners are always lamenting why Boxers aren't worth more, ignoring that there are only a handful of post-1975 cars that are worth more than they were new."

"Boxers eat money without moving."

"Rather than lamenting the value of their Boxers, owners should be thankful they are worth as much as they are."

I think Ahlgrim is at Ed Waterman's Motorcar Gallery in Ft. Lauderdale. Incensed BB owners should send their packages of dead mice and fish to Ahlgrim c/o Motorcar.

 

"Boxers eat money without moving."

I think he is right !!

 

No more than our TRs...

 

Sounds like he's been spending some time here!

 

Aw, Steve's alright. Plus, he's been around Ferraris forever and has a pretty good perspective. Thing is, name an elder Ferrari that isn't a little bit spendy in the maintenance department. That is NOT why the values are lower than they should be or soon will be.

They are lowish because this is opportunity time. Ask ANY market follower what they thought Dinos would do 5 years ago. Nostradamus wouldn't have gotten close.

When you see smart professionals restoring Boxers (as they are now) THAT'S when things start heating up. A guy brazen enough to have 'invested' 300grand in a Boxer ain't trying to run the market, doesn't care, but it happens because a) he won't talk to bottom feeders and b) doesn't have to sell. New 'highs' get set.

Anyway, I'm gratified at the $200k 365. That'll seem like a bargain in time.

 

For some reason a boxer is worth at least half of a Dino. Actually a little less. A Boxer is 2x the Dino, and worth half as much. Go figure.

 

Simple anyone can drive a dino, hence the wider appeal.

A boxer is a very cool older ferrari, and the least expensive cool older ferrari you can buy. But it takes an owner who understrands cars to own/operate one. On the other hand it is more useable than a Daytona in todays world, a lot of fun etc. But you have to enjoy if for what it is. As cars and Ferraris beconme more collectable the crowd will move on to boxers. It is the last really collectable one out there. All the older front engined V12's arte done even the ropey 2+2's, the 288 and F40 are serious$$$ the Dino is done, the 308's are too numerous so all that is left to the savy and tasteful is the boxer.

 

What is so upside down about the boxer ....is it was never allowed here in North America when introduced, but sold decently else where.

Fast forward 30+ yrs and the amount of boxers now in North America must be half by now, and this car has not moved in price. What the heck happened to the rest of the world that bought these cars ? Are they not in love now ?

I would have thought with these cars now coming over here, the demand and price would shoot up....but it has not.

This is the part I really don't understand.

 

i think the boxer will have its day. how can it not? it was the supercar of the day. the fastest production car in the world...and dick fritz said the tested car was choked down fully at that!

if a 250 gte can become a movie star...the boxer, which is actually already having movie star good looks...she too will shine again!!!

 

Maybe, but don't you find it very odd that this car has not taken off in price since its been open to the North American market ?

I find it puzzling. Did the europeans fall out of love ?

 

lots of people find it odd...i do too. hell i bought one because i thought it was going to be the "next" ferrari to have its day in the sun. so far i have been wrong...but the car remains worth mor than i paid and still just as beautiful so i feel lucky enough!

pcb

 

For whatever reason, there seem to be a very small group of people interested in Boxers. For that matter, Countachs don't seem to be in all that much demand either.

 

After Enzo past away Boxers reached 250-300k in the late eighties and started dropping in prize after 1991 on.

How much were the Dinos bringing then?....not even a fraction....when Boxers were worth before that in the eighties in the Us 100k Dinos were worth 15-20k

So the Dino came of age and it has gorgeous lines,but just an underpowered street car without even a Ferrari engine......why?.......age!

The Boxer is still between two stools ,still too young and modern looking today and not too old to be a true collectible but it is coming of age in a few years and that is why they started to move up in value the last few years and they will keep on going and get strong after 2014.

last made 84s has be over thirty years old before they start what the Dino did the last 10 years.
Also they are not too cheap to buy in todays standards with a bad economy where bad cars do 100k and good ones a lot more.

One thing for sure they will never be worth less than today but you could not say that ten years ago.
I think their future is clear.

Mario

 

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist -- you may indeed feel that the Boxer is between two stools, but I think you probably meant to say that it's between two schools. I started my day with a smile on my face -- thank-you for that.

 

Steve is just taking writing lessons from Mike. The best way to get noticed these days is to write something with Shock value..... an interesting time indeed!

 

Sayeth the new Boxer owner

 

Shhhh... Dont want to destroy the market with that type of hersay. Call it a parts car and everything will be mo better.

 

Countach is also an interesting comparison, same era same stuck price, although periscope countaches are well over 300k. I could say that a boxer and countach take serious comitment to own and drive hence the limited appeal. Yet a miura would fit in the same comitment box and these are priced well above even daytonas at 600k to 1 mill, yet a few years ago struggled to breal 100K.

Another car to look at is a Ghibli, they still are not worth too much, yet are every bit as beautiful as a daytona and less expensive to maintain.

So yes maybe a countach and boxer will become the next it collectables, or maybe like the ghibli they will just linger on. My guess is that at some point in the next 10 years there will be two types of ferraris, those that are the modern computer ones, and those that are old school. The boxer may become ultra desirable for all its foibles because it is old school.
This will lift 308 prices and even TR prices as they fit between the two.

Remember the Tr was designed as the liveable ferrari, good ac etc, and since then Ferrari has gone more and more liveable, with larger production. If you want old school, the boxer and early 308's are the last of them, and they are not making any more. Once these cars are "collectable" their use changes and their difficulties become their charms. the question si when do we hit that point.

Look at astons, for years DB6's were dogs, and even DB4's were not worth too much with a DB3 being of interest only to marque anaoraks. Once the new astons came out there was a desire tyo collect,drive the older ones, and as ferrari prices were int he stratosphere astons took off. Yest the V8 from the 70's which is clearly old school is still a 50-100k car. In fact what exotic car from the mid 70-s to early 80's is worth serious $$$ besides a 288? Maybe its just an era thing, or its era is the enxt thing to come.

In short the boxer might just be the next collectable ferrari, but might just be stuck with the late 70's early 80"s price malaise that affects all exotics from that era.

 

i just read this...and i had to lol.

i am smiling now

 

Probably should've snipped some things from this, but past the very forgivable typos, this is pretty darned insightful. Great post, and I agree.

 

Sorry Sean,

The price points you mentioned are way off. Countaches by the way have out paced Boxers in value as of late. Unless it's the Anniversario Countach, the value of the best examples have been solid from $125K-$250K. The 250K for the QV DDs or S2 low body cars. The S1 low body cars from $200-$400K. Periscope Countaches are $650K now for a high quality restored example as the orange one just sold at Gooding. The Countach market is on fire (that's why I just bought one) with no inventory for buyers to cherry pick through like the BB market offers. Amazing really! The BB's are doing as bad as the 308 market IMO. The Dinos, 330 GTC and most 2+2 12 cyl Ferraris are doing quite well with solid appreciation in recent months. 330 GTC @ $190-$225K was the norm just 18 months ago. The 250 GTE and 250 PF Coupes $100k-$250 for the best examples also not long ago. Now project cars at close to those numbers. Who would think that the mostly ignored and undesirable Countach would out perform a BB? The Ghibli Spiders are getting up there too.
The market for a BB is just ridicules and unexplainable. I read every one's theories behind the low valuation of the BB, but I still do not get it no matter what the reasons people put forth. If I had more room and a few more bucks I would own a BB in every color ever produced as these cars are free right now and I kinda like them is various colors!

Geno

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With countachs going up, there will be a natural pull spillover to the boxer. What does hold boxers back is I suppose the false impresion of an adequate supply of decent ones. There are probably though plenty good anniversay countach, plus the 25 anniv countach looks worse than a kit car.

IMHO in time the countach will hit its own stratosphere, there never was something like it before or since, and in era it was regarded as THE car. The boxer was only ever really known to conniseurs as is the case today. But then remember when people said a 288 would never be worth real money because it looked like a 308 and a F40 had better performance. At some point a group of collectors reckognise a certain car and then the price zooms.

I have seen a club outtings more and more serious ferrari owners showing up in boxers. Their reasoning is that a boxer actualy drives great, is more fun and useable on modern roads than the old front engined cars, yet retains that special rawness of a live machine the older cars have but offers more. In short a boxer is really fun in corners, fun at all speeds, feels lithe, and yet has that classic viceral ferrari feel with great looks. To get the same thing in a classic ferrari only the 288 has the looks and feel. The F40 not really roadable and too hard core and the Tr visualy challenged and heavy. Whatever practical faults a BB had are now virtues, given that as old cars they do not need to have the "best" performance and be daily useable.

In other words the more cognocenti who try a boxer the more there will be buyers. To a certain extent we already see this refelcted in 365 prices. One last point, a car can only be virgin once, and for a collector/driver an original car will always be worth more, no matter how superlatively another may be restored. From that perspecteive, how many boxers wear their original paint and interiors, and of those how many drive great and are easily brought up to near concours standards. I know I have one and maybe there are a few others out there, but far less than you think. How many BBI's(of which there seem to be many) do you see advertised with supposedly low mileage wearing new paint and interiors.


Ghibli spiders have always sold well, but the coupes are still moribund.

Lamborghini's are an interesting animal, if a 350 Gt is over 300k what price should a daytona be. Historicaly a 350 Gt was less than a boxer, but then the market just loves those old italian front engined V12's, and a 275 is way more.

Changing theme a little, when boxers hit big numbers, for fun driving at a reasonable price what comes next. I personaly think the great buys to drive and enjoy are the 456 and 550. The 456 may suffer as 2+2's always sem to get slaged off and its handling is a little soggy, but untill the arrival of the 458 it was the most beautiful modern ferrari. The 550 is all the car you can use on the road, they are still old schoolish stick shift hard chargers, and they are really getting reasonable.

What is a great boxer, at the top of the pile has to be a honest unrestored car with original paint and inetrior that runs great. Of these there are very few. Even most BBI's have new interiors or paint, of of those that are original may are ropey and run poorly. A car entusiast owned maintained and driven is a hard thing to find. I know people who spent years looking for such a car and "settled" for really good ones with a repaint, and thats BBI's. In the BB are there any really original ones left. When the market comes to the BB series you know which ones are going to fetch the top $$, something original that drives great, because that is what collector/drivers will seek out..

 

Sean brings up some interesting points.

While an all original car would logically seem to bring more money than a restored car, I have seen some evidence that would suggest otherwise. Newman restored his beautiful yellow 308, and when it sold it fetched what many believe is the highest price in many years for that model.

Based on that and other examples, I propose that meticulously restored BB's like Spitfire's (even discounting the fact that it is one of the original prototypes) and cars that are restored to a similar level will generally sell for more than the most original, low mile example.

As it relates to the 288, my opinion is they are still underappreciated, similar to the Boxer. Even so, unlike the F40, it seems many 288 owners seldom drive them. From talking to the few owners of both that I have, it seems 288's are predominantly owned for price appreciation while F40 owners are more prone to driver-appreciation and the behind the wheel experience (and why not, it is hard to argue that the F40 isn't at the top of a very select list as it relates to driving experience.)

My sense from BB owners here on FChat is more of an F40 mentality: the ownership priority being the driving experience the Boxer offers.

I see one of two things needed to make Boxer prices move. Either the passion current owners share is increased into a broader audience, or there is increased appreciation of the unique characteristics a Boxer offers: Enzo era, handmade, difficult to drive(read: requiring skill and practiced touch to be rewarding), no frills beauty that has the rare, by Ferrari standards, flat 12, midengine setup that combine to create one of the most visceral driving experiences ever afforded a road car. Is it going to far calling it a gentleman's race car for the road?

It remains to be seen if this ever happens, though I suspect it will.

 

No, I have always thought the same but I cant go along with the 'difficult to drive', either at the limit or in town. Properly set up I consider them a very well balanced car, yet one that gives quite good feedback. The other thing I have read a lot about is the 'heavy clutch', and once again... when right, are anything but and quite delightful. Personal opinions I guess.

I find it very interesting reading all the opinions offered.

 

Boxer=Can Am racer for the road, and all that implies. We will not see its likes again.

Good news about the 288's not being driven is if you get the $$$ there will be some great ones around.