308 GT4 Gobbled Sodium Exhaust Valve

I am new to this forum and new to the world of Ferrari ownership. I thought my story might be of interest to some of the members here and maybe I can get a few tips that can help me with my new project. First, I have to admit that my background is with British cars where building motors and restoring old Triumphs and MGs has kept me entertained for the previous 35 years but I was looking to graduate to the next step and tackle the supreme car, a Ferrari. I fell in love with a beautiful 1975 308GT4 that I found in Colorado so I took it for a test drive with a very cool owner and it was all she wrote. I just had to have this car. I shipped it home and drove it for less than 20 miles and it drove well just like in Colorado, a car that could not be rivaled in pleasure. The sound of that motor was really like music. I took it to the gas station for the first time and filled it with premium gas. Less than 1 mile from the Shell station (and way under the red line) it let loose a grinding noise that you can only imagine in your worst nightmare. The noise went away before I could get the car to the side of the road so I limped home (less than 1 mile). I pulled the plugs and you can see that the #2 plug told the story of the liberated exhaust valve. Whaaaaa! Well, at least I can get going on working on the car which was the point in the first place. For me, driving the car is just the icing on the cake. I spent a few weeks looking at the articles on this forum and figured out how to pull the engine mostly from the posts from Ferraripilot. (Thank you very much – your method worked like a charm). After the engine was out it was pretty easy to get the head off. Now we can all see what a gobbled valve looks like on the 308. From other posts and from Birdmans web site I think I can get the clutch off. So now what? I have not found a good step-by-step instruction on getting the motor separated from the tranny. Now for my questions:
1. Is there a written method to get the engine separated from the transmission, and are there any special tools needed?
2. I am not interested in doing the head work. If the head can be salvaged, are there recommendations to who I should work with to revive this head and rebuild the other head. Obviously I will put new non-sodium filled exhaust valves in. If this head cannot be salvaged, are there any good leads on where I can get a good head? (“7th grader snicker snicker”)
3. There were small metal flakes (probably from the hole in the piston) in the oil. I know everything is has to be dissembled, inspected and cleaned but are there areas of special interest or land mines that I should be aware of?
4. If I need to find someone local to help get through the woods, is there someone in Southern California that is recommended as a 308 engine expert?
Thanks in advance for any help or words of encouragement from the forum.
Paul
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Once everyone wakes up, i am sure there will be lots of help available to you. Gt Car parts in AZ and T Rutlands in GA, SuperFormance in the UK are some great places to buy used " hard parts". Ricambi has excellent kits for the cooling , fuel hoses and gasket sets.

All i can add is i am sorry. I have been shunning the 2v cars for the last few years due to my work in Aerospace: The sodium valves have got to go. Cars that have not had a valve job and new head gaskets need to be taken down several thousand $$$ in selling prices to appeal to long time buyers.

Had a series one GT4 and a euro 208 gt4. Neat cars, but I am not going to own a 2v Ferrari or older 911 because of this very reason.


The down time and repair work after there has been a failure of some kind is a deal killer for me. I salute you for jumping in there and getting all dirty with her. But many here see the rise in asking prices and do not wish to see the fact these cars, even the QV's are getting O L D.


Get P6 cams, and a better ignition, not saying modify the car too much, just get rid of the points, maybe some better higher compression pistons....



ps: be glad the head(s) came off 'easy" sometimes they take extraordinary measures to remove due to galvanic corrosion growing between the studs and head mount holes, " gluing " the heads on.

 

Make friends with Dave Helms in Boulder, CO.

Google: "Scuderia Rampante" for phone number and address.

 

Much like yourself I was and still am into English iron from TDs to XKEs. There is nothing mystical about working on these engines other than the cost of parts. Don't be afraid to take it apart and re-assemble it. The head work is another story and if it were me I would first call Dave Helms and ship the head to him to get a REAL answer on what to do. The whole bottom end should at least be checked. As is said "there is never enough time to do it right but always time to do it twice". I hope you don't give up these engines really do run well and the feel of the 308 beats anything I have driven from England with the exceptions of my Lola and Van Dieman. Lost

PS Don't mean to pour salt but I did do allot of reading here and I changed out the sodium valves for SS before I had the same problem. The answers are here and most are willing to share info.

 

what state did you take the car to. what is your elevation there?. did you Re-jet the main and A/C jets in the carbs to compensate for the altitude change? if you took it to a lower elevation, it will run a lot leaner - i doubt whether or not it played a role in the valve failure, but be sure to re-jet accordingly if you have not done so yet.

 

Excellent point Gio! Agreed, it likely had nothing to do with the failure but in time it would have caused others IF the car was ever rejetted in the first place. I believe it was by past conversations/emails but to what extent I do not know.

E-D, you are so Very fortunate that this played out as it did! This is the same type of failure I saw on a Competition Daytona we are finishing up. The valve head hit a couple of times and was 'captured in the open seat area on that one as well. On my 77GTB there were two cylinders where no traces of a piston exist, just a con rod with a wrist pin through it and traces of 2 liners. The largest piece of piston found was about 3/8" square, and even at that, that block is still salvageable with some effort.

In your case I suspect the head is fairly easily repairable and based on the fact that I bought no less than 3 "Buildable" and 1 "Bolt it in" engines, the later being the one with a welded in place piston, and only have enough useable pieces to make about 1.5 engines from the 5...... you might want to fix what you have! Lost is spot on.... press forward, it will work out, but I strongly suggest you make a very comprehensive plan on paper before you proceed further than damage assessment stage. CA registered will demand some of the changes suggested might not work out as well as expected.

 

Well, welcome and condolences, all in one post.

Looks like Dave Helms has joined in the thread, he's the one to know.
Valves are the easy part, as the pistons are the rare piece of the equation.
You want to try to save the head casting too if possible, it mates to the valve cover.

Maybe come up with a matched set of pistons via salvage?
New ones are "not cheap"....

Depends on the long term use of the car, I suppose.
Good luck!

And "sorry"....

 

+100 for Mr Helms, sorry I forgot him in my reply. ( it was early)

 

> is there someone in Southern California that is recommended as a 308 engine expert?

I'm not sure where you are in Southern, Ca, but Sean Dynes (username luckydynes) lives near Carlsbad, CA, north of San Diego. He's very knowledgable on these engines, does a lot of rebuilding & even custom engine mods.

Also, there are several long established well known shops in the San Diego area.

 

Sean Dynes and Scotty McGeehee in Newport Beach..( SMG2 ... PM him. )
Both down south,,,, Both have saved me lots of money.
Scotty sells top notch 2V Gasket kits... cheeper and, you get Elring head gaskets.
Sean makes the Best, Cam Cogs and Oil pump stuff.

You have the Old Style front cover.... Ok, not funny.
But, I got your bearings and seals. PM me.


Good Luck,
Edwardo
I have your,, 1979 and 1981 2V 308, Motor, liners, pistons, covers, rods ...... etc.
Cheep,,, Right here.....

 

Newman has pistons and other used engine part for sale if you chose to go that route.

 

I got a set of new custom made 10:1 piston with rings and pins for $1,200. Not bad..... and now is the best time to get a bump in compression.... good luck. Sorry you're dealing with this....

 

Yea, it's the "putting them in there" that is the trouble!

 

The Liners are a bee's itch to mess with. Least that old they are not Nikasil.

 

Ya know....this just sucks. I hate that for you. What a bum way to start your ownership.

I understand you just got her. And I know sodium filled valves have their horror stories....but....had the car been sitting for awhile? What was the maintenance history? Was it an oil consumer? Did you over rev it, miss a gear? Was any ticking noticeable from the engine prior to the valve dropping? Was the car still in time cam wise after the damage and before disassembly? Any belt damage evident? Was the suspect valve spring damaged/broken?

I ask all this as I am considering a preventative rebuild on my 82. Just wondering if there were signs of a cause other than it just being a 37 year old sodium filled valve.

Make a good thread of it. Please let us know where you are sourcing parts and costs. I have a feeling many more of us will be down the rebuild road in the near future.

Best Regards,
John M

 

As the valves age the metal fatigues and becomes brittle over time and they end up cracking like glass when they hit the limit and perhaps possible but I have never detected any pre indicators. When I tore my engine down I removed the sodium valves for stainless not because of a failed valve but just because it made sense. When looking at the old valves, I suspect that they were not spinning while the engine was running as the carbon and ash was built up more on one side and there was a distinct angle on the carbon line. When the valve no longer freely spin, aside from valve seat uniformity, one side takes the brunt of the heat plus ash and carbon build up and work as an insulator creating hot spots and increased fatigue. I suspect this has been a factor in some cracked valves
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Sorry to hear about your engine, gt car parts in Phoenix Arizona i great, they must have at least 100 engines, and heads there, they are amazing. and not expensive, I just changed my valves , honestly I dont know if I had sodium or not, but I got SS intake and exhaust for around 750, with valve guides, so it was pretty cheap I guess. I´m not sure where I got them, but if you want, I can research , ok.............. , Alzheimers is over now SSI valves is where.

best of luck

Anastasio

 

In Alfa land where I come from, we have the sodium filled valves as well. Occassionally you will see a very burnt exhaust valve, but I cannot recall an incident where one just broke. I wonder if some of this on the 3L is from seat recession and lack of compensating shimming combined with something in the guides or followers. There has to be something that is being missed in the design that generates snapped valves in Ferrari land and not in Alfa land. Time to start collecting parts.

 

+1 on guides and keepers IMHO

 

Thanks so much everyone for the kind and supportive posts. I feel that maybe this project won’t be as impossible as I first thought. I know it will be expensive, but with help like this I am feeling better about getting this baby back on the road.

I have a theory on why the valve let go that I would be interested in hearing others comment on. When I first looked at the car I asked the seller about the fuel he used. He told me he always used just regular gas. When the car arrived in the truck, it did not have much gas in it but enough for a few laps around the neighborhood. I kept the tach well below 5K and warmed it up well. The next day was the trip to the gas station. I thought I would be clever and put in premium gas. It’s a Ferrari after all. I put premium in my TR4 why wouldn’t I put it in the 308? It wasn’t long after leaving the gas station when the valve let go. Maybe the higher octane caused slower burning and higher temps on the exhaust valves? Maybe that was enough to cause a small crack to grow? What do you think? What fuel do most 308s use?

I have more pictures I can post as this project progress if there is interest.

 

Sorry to hear about the valve failure. Working on these cars is more than half the fun...

So don't sweat it. This forum makes it much easier.

Pump gas differences are very minimal. Was it running hot when it let go? Your jetting would be the thing that would increase temps, but I do think that worn guides/keepers and adjustment could be the cause of a mechanical failure. Please post your findings as you take it apart. Measuring and inspecting along the way. Good luck!

 

Pics, inspections and reports are ALWAYS highly valued here. Most of us would be very interested in your investigation and rebuild progress. It would become one of the "IT" Threads to follow.

Lead On !!!!!

 

Could be... but much more likely the timing was coincidence. If something is going to break, it's most likely to go shortly after the car wakes up from a long sleep.

Compression ratios generally suggest that a US-spec 308 will be perfectly happy on regular, but I put premium into mine anyways, because as you say... It's a Ferrari after all

 

Yes, absolutely, but I thought I read people recommending that he can find a used piston to put in. If that's the case he is already gonna have to open the motor up. Might as well swap out and increase his CR.

 

Yes, please post pics. A blow by blow is always appreciated.