Brake bleeding: what did I do wrong?

Your "methods" seem a little odd to me. The classic method is:

with bleed screw closed
pump the pedal a few times and hold
open the bleed screw - fluid will come out as the pedal moves towards the floor as the assistant continues to hold (press)
close bleed screw before the pedal reaches the floor
repeat

You never want the pedal moving upwards when the bleed screw is open. Your "one pump" method is a little closer to this, but still not quite the same.

 

Keeping in mind what Steve is saying, here's what you're not taking into consideration and what makes bleeding the 400 different. Unlike most cars, the 400 and the 365bb have a dual-diagonal braking system on each side of the car; hence why, in this specific case, there are two lines to each brake caliper. So, for bleeding purposes, you will bleed differently.

LR-Inner
LF-Outer
Repeat and then do the center bleeder

LR-Outer
LF-Inner
Repeat and then do the center bleeder

RR-Inner
RF-Outer
Repeat and then do the center bleeder

RR-Outer
RF-Inner
Repeat and then do the center bleeder

 

If you want to end the nightmare, buy a Motive (or similar) brake bleeder. I almost look forward to brake fluid service since I bought mine. Then alternate between yellow and blue fluid with each flush. Makes it really easy.

 

If you weren't bleeding the brakes you might have time for "other quality time" with your wife!

 

Definitely what Steve said about pumping up & hold pressure on the pedal 'before' cracking the bleeder open. I'm thinkin' you've got air in the lines.
Check this out:
http://www.eurospares.co.uk/userImages/047/Large/047_038.gif
The front end of the master cyl. feed the lower pistons on all fours & the rear end feeds the uppers.
I tried the Motive Power bleeder (only as a pressurizer, no brake fluid in it...) & would fill the reservoir when it would run low but I had problems with air pressure & fluid pushing out around the sensor plug below the white caps (@ 5 psi).
I'm figuring you've got the 2 white sensor caps split by the black filler cap reservoir version.

 

+100

The Motion products bleeder works well, make sure you get the adapter for the screw on reservoirs caps found on Ferrari's

I've reckon that training a monkey to perform brain surgery is easier that getting my S.O. to help with brake bleeding, and that the resulting arguments are also the underlying cause of most divorces.

M

 

I'll bet you are drawing air in past the threads of the bleeder screws. Th ehose into a container of fluid method has never worked well for me.
With two "men" I would pump it until the pedal is firm then crack the bleeder being sure to close it before "man" #2 lets off the pedal. Your sequence is correct.
Since my wife is far less inclined to assist with this sort of thing I typically wind up gravity bleeding by opening a bleeder and letting it run until clear of air, tapping on the caliper to release bubbles clinging inside.
Either works for me.

 

Europares & RicambiAmerica are good online sources for IPB's,

use the Parts Finder @ the top:
http://eurospares.co.uk/index.asp?M=1&G=

or the Original Parts Cat. on the left:
http://ricambiamerica.com

For the caliper IPB, go to the next page after the brake line layout.
http://eurospares.co.uk/partTable.asp?M=1&Mo=652&A=1&B=37702&S=

It's difficult to determine what bleed nipples bleed what…that's the one detail missing, the caliper inner chambers were the 2 circuits enter. It appears that the inner caliper nipple bleed the lower piston circuit, the outer upper caliper nipple bleed the upper caliper piston circuit. And the outer center bleed nipple would be the common bleed for both circuits…but I'm not sure.
With the above process described (LR inner, LF outer, repeat, then center for instance), it appears that you're flushing the 2 circuits alternatively through the process. I'm wondering why you can't flush each circuit separately…one first, then the second.

Typically when the master cylinder is located up front, the rear lines are the first to flush. With respect to the front circuits on the 400i, both sides of both upper & lower circuits look like they're the same distance in the IPB but in reality the right side is a longer run for both circuits. (refer to attch'd. pic below, looking from the rear of the engine facing forward). With respect to the rear circuits, the upper & lower circuits have longer runs to one side (on the upper piston circuit, the left side appears longer,…on the lower piston circuit, the right side appears longer). A lot of times, Ferrari IPB's can be interpreted literally, other times not. It requires measuring the line length of every caliper piston branch to determine what's the longest & what's the shortest. Now I'm curious about all of this.

I also linked the brake fluid reservoir for the 400i, I think you've got the 3 cap version (2 white & 1 larger black center caps). When I hook up the power bleeder (to the center black cap) & pressurize the reservoir, fluid & air leak out of where the sensor fittings exit out of the sides of the threads (@ the white caps). Even the bottom thread is cut out to take the sensor fitting. They fit snug but won't stand up to more than 2-3 lbs. of pressure w/o leaking. I'm curious if anyone else has had this problem or not.
http://eurospares.co.uk/partTable.asp?M=1&Mo=652&A=1&B=37698&S=
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You've invented compressible fluid

Unfortunately, these two statements are incompatible:

if the pedal is "solid" (after pumping, but) before opening the bleed screw -- was it?

This can get a little messy, but you can try cracking open a line connected to the master cylinder and see if any fluid comes out when you do the same pedal procedure (pump, hold, crack line open while assistant presses pedal down, etc.). If fluid doesn't come out of the MC fitting, you've got an MC problem (but usually the pedal will never go "solid" if the MC is bad).

 

+1, I thought the same thing when I read that very little fluid bled out, I'm thinking the seals inside the master cylinder are shot.

Also Bill, after your wife pumps the pedal 2 or 3 times to get a solid pumped up feel & while holding pressure on the pedal, crack open the bleed nipple. It's okay for her to push the pedal to the floor & hold it on the floor until you close the nipple. You'll transfer more fluid per cycle & you don't have to worry about air getting in (so long as she doesn't release the pedal prior to you closing that blasted nipple ).

 

do not use a 308 master

 

Looks like the master cylinder & brake servo are all one part: #110792 or 101536
Could be a pricy one, did you perform the earlier mentioned MC check to verify?

Try FerrParts, they're breaking a 400i LHD
http://www.ferrparts.com/ourcars.php#400i

Make a note of these guys (if you haven't already) for future needs, give them a call...they may be able to send you to someone who has the part you need:

Dennis McCann
http://www.allferrariparts.com

Eurospares
http://eurospares.co.uk/partTable.asp?M=1&Mo=652&A=1&B=37696&S=

Ricambi America
http://www.ricambiamerica.com/parts_catalogs.php?M=FE&P=&V=diag&I=3305

T. Rutlands
http://www.trutlands.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=110792&osCsid=5i3er5e8vbjb5b3v29ude0o7d1

More suppliers:

Maranello Ferrari Parts
https://www.ferrariparts.co.uk/110792-Servo_0Nla_seo.aspx

Ferrari Parts Exchange
http://www.ferraripartsexchange.com

Italian Car Parts
http://www.italiancarparts.com/brakes/FerrariBrakes.html

 

Just some comments:

1- that 400! is the weirdest brake system I have ever seen. What a waste of plumbing and added weight.

2- with old master cylinders (MC) you don't want to bleed to the floor because part of the MC never sees stroke. You scratch the seals on crap that builds up in there then you get a MC leak internally and you get what you got now in feeling. But this might not be a failed master. If your car is new then you can fully stroke it and continue to do so if you bleed brakes very regularly.

3- read up on how to bleed a MC. You need to bleed the MC because your system sounds AFU'ed. You are probably just using cheap dot 3. If so buy ATE super blue and ATE super gold brake fluid. Bleed the master with super blue because you got gold something in your lines now 99% chance. Then when you know the MC is bleed well then bleed the read of the system per fast radio protocol but 2 man style, place a 2x4 under the brake to prevent full stroke, say "do down" you crack the bleeder fluid comes out, she holds to the bottom. You say "up" and your bleeder is tight then she strokes it down on your command again until your see blue fluid you know you got 100% of line clear. Check your master level and go to the next bleeder. Next season put gold in the MC and bleed until you see the gold. Easy done 100%

4- if your MC is toast you don't have to send the big round brake booster. The master will unbolt from the booster. WhitePost in virginia can rebuild the master for about $100-200 bucks. When you get it back you start at #3 above.

Well good luck and let us know what worked.

 

I've not seen anyone address the question of brake hoses in diagnosing this problem of "no fluid" coming out. What is the condition of your brake hoses, and how old are they? If you have bad (see below) hoses this can cause this problem when you try to bleed the brakes. You should replace all brake hoses "every so often" (check shop manual). There is a DOT date on your hoses to tell you when they were made. I discovered similar problems you describe that I traced to the original 20 year old brake hoses. The failure method is this: brake fluid eventually deteriorates the rubber brake hose and it swells up internally causing a restriction. I had one swolen completely shut and 3 swolen about 75% shut. There is no external indication of the problem. A secondary problem with internally swolen brake hoses, which is worse, is that after you apply and then release the brakes, the pressure remains in the hose between the swolen restriction and the calipers which causes the pads to remain engaged with the caliper. This will wear your calipers down quickly. Double check the thickness of your calipers against the minimum allowable thickness. (Check your shop manual for the value.) and definitely check the DOT date code on your hoses. It wouldn't hurt to disconnect a suspect hose and apply brake pedal pressure to see what kind of flow you have. Rather than replace your MC, you may just need hoses. IF this is the case, I recommend you have the hoses made rather than purchase them from a dealer or parts vendor. It will save you a bundle and is DOT approved and legal. The "trick" is to make sure the company making your hose has access to the correct hose-end fitting. My experience was that the Ferrari hose fitting, if not unique, is not commonly available at most hose places. Brass in TN is associated with the company that makes the hose ends and hose equipment and they are co-located in the same building. GOOGLE them. The turn-around was very quick and the price about 1/4 of after market suppliers.

Here is my 2 cents about using DOT3 vs ATE Blue or ATE Gold. The last time I bought ATE Blue it was around $18-20/qt. It may be more now. I used a "small fortunes worth" of ATE Blue trying to bleed brakes, since it isn't reusable after it goes through the system. I suggest you use reasonably priced DOT3 (from NAPA, or ?) until you work out all of the kinks of brake bleeding and have a fully functioning brake system. Make sure you start with a new can, perhaps a gallon. DOT3 is approved and you can leave it in the system if you want to. The ATE Blue & Gold is more for "track days" and/or racing with it's very high boiling point. IF you feel you want/need the ATE Blue/Gold specifications, then re-bleed the system replaceing the DOT3. It is easy to see when the Blue fluid comes out. Next year, you can repeat with ATE Gold, again it is easy to see when the new fluid comes out. If you don't know that you need the high specs of ATE Blue/Gold, then stick to DOT3. Whatever you use, it is recommend that the fluid be changed yearly. I know that very few do this. I hope some of this is useful.
.........Steve

 

Two additions and corrections to my previous post.
#1 the name of the company that makes brake hoses is ROYAL BRASS AND HOSE in TN. They cover 7 states in the SE.
http://www.royalbrassandhose.com/brake_hose.html
It is best to send them a sample original hose to insure correct hose end and hose length(s).
.....and #2. Above I said brake pressure remains in the line between the restriction in the swolen brake line and the caliper causing them to wear quickly. This is true but the real problem I meant to point out is that the retained line pressure causes the BRAKE DISC to wear. Without knowing it, you are effectively running with the brakes partially applied. You need to measure the DISC and compare to the minimum allowable wear limit. It may be different for fronts and rears. (It is for my Daytona) Always check your parts/shop manual for wear tolerances.
............Steve

 

Just a check on a recommendation here...
I read way more threads than I post, there is so much to gain from the good people/the 'experienced' but when I saw White Post, I knew I read a few 'not good' things about them...and from people who, I think, are in the know.
When Brian types all caps, he's passionate about it...he's virtually 'shouting' it.
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=248756&highlight=whitepost
Post #6
Great recommendation on the Blue & Gold!

 

Very good info

 

For hoses, even though I'd prefer the rubber ones, Superformance has a good deal on Goodrich braided steel hoses; see their kit "SP23." The fronts for 308 are the same hoses for the (8) hoses on a 400. Eurospares substituted the rears and provided all 8 "fronts" for me. I got mine on sale for 49 pounds for 4 hoses, so even at the worst case of 19 pounds individually I trust the hoses (certainly more than the 30 year old hoses that were there...).


My master cylinder is at White Post this week, unfortunately on Warranty. At least the good news is that WR at White Post repaired and returned the same day it arrived. But given a chance to do it over (and I hope I don't need to...), I'd buy this one for about $380 new http://www.ebay.com/itm/150621946508?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 .

In case anybody ever has the same symptom; car would drive OK for a few miles, then the brake feel would get stiff and the car would slowly come to a creep...I'd have to wait for a couple hours to have the fluid cool down and contract and take the pressure off the brake lines to limp a few more miles. Problem was that the MC piston was sticking in the sleeved MC and not allowing pressure to be released. Not a caliper problem, all wheels would freeze...Lee