Hi guys, I have lurked for a while researching these cars of my dreams, and now I am having a little trouble finding one to buy, and or also deciding on which to buy. If anyone knows of a good one for sale, please point me to it. I prefer something in price of $50-$55 or $60 if it is special. But I don't want to grossly overpay, and I can't make heads nor tails of this market. I have seen advertised, a couple cars that intrigue me. If you are interested, I wrote about them here. I am hopelessly longwinded, I apologize. If you don't want to read the details, I can tell you the short version: I have found: 1.) a near mint 12k mi. 87 testarossa in ideal circumstance (all my questions had the right answers and I trust the guy) 2.) a 93 512tr with 37k for about $60k (sounds ideal except 37k mi., maj. service is 8 yrs old but only 3k miles) the 12k miles car was driven somewhat more in last 8 years than the 37k mile car. Can't decide which is best to buy. Still looking for others. ($60k seems a lot for a Testarossa, but I would rather spend it now on a good car than later on repairs for a bad car, while $60k seems small price for a 512tr, but after all, it is "high mileage" and major service is 3k mi and 8 yrs old.) My main concern is value for money and marketability of the cars in the future. The 37k mi. makes me think the 512tr could be hard to sell, and the $60k price bothers me about the testarossa even more. But scarcity of 512tr's compared to testarossas make me think the 512 is the only way to go. I see 60 testa available, but only a handful 512tr's. But in the slim chance there is gonna be any upside, maybe the 37k mi. on the 512 is a deal killer. Mind you, I don't plan on selling, but I may have to if something unexpected comes along. I only have about $150k of extra cash, including the $$ for the car, so spending $70 on a car is a big deal. But I've waited long enough, and I didn't buy the aston martin for $20k that is now worth $200, or the dino for $15 that is $150 now. Or the 69 Ghibli for $9k. And I'll be dog gone if I miss my chance to have the only car I really ever dreamed or cared about, while losing out on the financial gain to boot. On the other hand, this is an unprecedented decline of the USA and of society in general, so I have to plan for disaster. Well, maybe not totally unprecedented. There were the dark ages. I'll put the details of the 2 cars in the next post, that way this post does not look like a novel. Thanks for any insight, or for any info on other cars available. I can't believe I am finally gonna get one of these.
here is more details on the 2 cars. I will post he ads and the pics if you want. Car # 1.) red/black 1987 12.5k miles, 3 owners (each owner 8-10 yrs and 4k miles each) major service last month. Only flaws are minor 1/8" pulling back of some of the dash vent leather, and some scraping underneath the bottom of the front bumper. It also gets driven every couple weeks, on trips no less than 20 miles at highway speeds. (except in winter when it is put to bed) it also goes on one long trip per year of 400 miles. Never left him stranded. No expense spared. He does whatever the mechanic suggests. Has every service record since new. These are the ideal circumstances I speak of. The only problem? He wants $60k for it. (I don't necessarily think this is too much, but I have a hard time making sense of it when I see on one hand auction results where they sell for $80k, and on the other hand, no sales for $35k high bid every day of the week. The only negative is, it is not the later 88.5+ model which tends to be worth more money. Car # 2.) Then, I found a red/tan 93 512tr, for $65, which I can probably get for $60, but needs major service and has 37k miles. This car also had 3 owners (haven't done carfax yet), privately owned. current owner for 6 yrs, and paid $94k from a private guy from FML. It did have the clutch, and major service 3k miles ago, and 8 years ago. Also had brakes, water pump and tubi exhaust 10k miles ago. I fantasize about this, because of, I guess, this is the one that was still sold new when I was reading car mags in high school. This was the car that I thought was the absolute end all be all of the car world. The Testarossa was that when I was younger, but those were elementary school years, but in high school, I only saw testarossa's in auto trader. The testarossa was almost within reach. The 512tr was out of the question. So it holds a little extra exclusivity in my mind. My main concern has to be value for money and marketability of the cars in the future. part or me can't help but notice that when I search for a testarossa, I find 60 some cars for sale, and with 512tr's, I find 4 or 5. Perhaps I am not looking in the right places. Is it really this badly skewed in the 512tr's favor in terms of scarcity? The economist in me thinks the 512tr is the only one I could ever hope to sell. Is a $60k testarossa something that will take a year on the market to sell? Even if it is perfect with an ideal history? I have also seen people say that a car is worth no more with a major service than it is without service. If anyone knows of a car with a major service just done for the price of a car without any service, I'd like to buy that one. Just point me to it. If anyone is interested I can put the ads of the 2 cars up here. I am having a hard time with this. Part of me thinks the 512tr is a bargain, because it is the rarer, updated car that everyone says is 100% more car for 40% more money. Then, the other part of me thinks, 37k miles, who knows what could have gone on in all those miles? and is this just the updated equivalent of the $45k testarossa with 37k miles and needing a service? Why then, if the $45k neglected testarossas don't appeal to me at all, does this 512tr seem like a bargain? Of course, this 512tr seems to be quite nice besides the "high" mileage. Part of me likes the mileage, because it proves the car works.
If your intention is not to sell it, I would go for a 512tr. Maybe not the one you have found, but I would look for a 512tr. I still believe you can have a great deal, if you are patience enough. I looked for 18 month's to find a good one for me and looked at many different 512tr... On a side note: I do not think extra cash of 150k is enough to buy such a car but that is only my opinion. To each his own...
My 512TR had about those miles when I got it, though a major a year prior. The miles meant nothing vs the condition. If you plan on keeping the car a while, the miles will be less of a factor. To me, the 512TR is the one to have and I ruled out testarossas, though they're fine cars. I wanted the improvements, driveability, perceived reliability upgrade. If you're out for future value, the high mirror cars or the later TRs would suit either purpose. Recent history favors the collectibility of the early cars, sort of similar to the BB market. In time I think that difference will be less extreme. Which one most excites you to imagine in your garage?
Regarding the 512 TR you're looking at, please note that you SHOULD do a major service as soon as possible. If it was 8 years ago, I wouldn't even drive it anymore before the major service. And this also means that you have to add an additional $5k to the price. And don't forget to do a serious PPI. It's worth it to have the car checked out by an expert. It can save you a lot of money ...
" this 512tr seems to be quite nice besides the "high" mileage " What high mileag do you mean ? Bought my 512TR 4 years ago at 55.000 kms, is now at 76.000 km's ! Better a car that has driven every year than not ..... The 512TR that you are looking for is imo the better car and also a bargain. But as the other members say: do the full engine-out right away and have them inspect also the gearbox if the serialnumber is too low ...
As in many other cases: within a single type/series, the newer cars are better than the older cars. Late 348s are better than early 348s. Late 355s are better than early 355s. Late Testarossas are better than early Testarossas. And yes, on average, the 512 TR (or F512 M) is better than the Testarossa. And don't forget that the 512 TR is not a simple facelift, but that most of the car has been updated. I had a similar situation as you, just a couple of months ago. I could go for a nice Testarossa (average mileage, nice condition, around 45-50k Euro). Or a unique coloured 512 TR (high mileage, needing major and more) which was for sale in the low 50s. To me, the 512 TR was more interesting: I prefer the more modern design, especially of the interior. Technically it's a better car and the one I had on my mind ('93 version) also had things like the updated diff and ABS. It also had a unique colour, which I really liked. So, I decided to go for the 512 TR! Was it the right decision? I don't know for sure, as I haven't driven the car yet (this was expected, as it needed work on the transmission) But I think I did the right thing. Just imagine: if you buy the Testarossa and then see a 512 TR driving by, what would you think???
Here is my take on this.. I agree with most that its nice to have a 512TR vs. a Testarossa if you like the upgrades.. The wheels and tires being 18" is a plus.. Easy to find tires and more modern design. I like the front bumper cover better on the 512TR but not the rear. I think the ass of the Testarossa is much nicer. I also like the black rocker panels that some paint in color. So what to do.. I would be very careful of a inexpensive 512TR. It would better in my opinion to have a 512TR that is in need of a engine out service so you have it done on your watch and you know who did it and know what it needed.. You need to really review the service records and receipts of repairs. look over them carefully. I would not like to buy a higher mileage 512TR that has a boat load of service/repair records because that means that many have put their hands in the engine bay guessing or fixing was they think was wrong.. I nicer lower mileage car with minimal repair receipts (not engine out receipts) would be preferred. This means that the engine bay is relatively intact with exceptions of engine out service but its a doulbe edge sword. Depending on who the mechanic was would sway me either way.. Lets not forget that once you purchase this car it needs sorting.. so maybe look for one that has some of the sorting already done. Things to put on your check list. 1. Fuse box.. if you plan on driving its only a matter of time.. It needs to be addressed and fixed. 2. Ignition wires.. the cavis wires that came with the car are terrible. 3. Gold connector kit - In my opinion a must. These cars are known for having bottom of the barrel terminals in the engine bay harness.. 4. Brakes.. make sure they are good.. try to check if any of the calipers are frozen. 5. Braided fuel vapor hoses and rubber hoses in the engine bay.. If the car is old then its safe to say you need to factor them in as well. 6. Tires.. check date codes on the tires to see how old they are. Especially if your looking at a Testarossa vs. a 512TR 7. Clutch. Its tough to check but try to do the best you can.. Also its nice if doing a clutch to change all the rubber o-rings and seals in the housing.. Its cheap and avoids possible fluid leaks. 8. If doing engine out change the tensioner bearings. Its a no brainer. 9. Check brake master cylnder and clutch master for any leaking. 10. Check under the vehicle. It should be dry and not moist and full of oil. If its super clean check the floor where its usually parking in the garage and see if the floor looks recently clean. Then you know that they cleaned up before you got there.. Some people a shady like that. 11. Review service history. 12. for me one of the most important. Review all repair history.. Put them in date order and read thru them. You can see thru the timeline what has been done and what kind of problems the car has had thru the years. You can see if car has had a re-occuring problem that seems to re-surface.. that means it was really never fixed. 13. then I would look into the body, chassis, interior for it to be to your liking. Check for re-sprays aand collision damages. Check all functions on the interior. Heater/AC fan speed control. Check the heat, windows, radio, fog lamps, high beams.. check to see if they work and if not why.. Try them a few times thru the course of the inspection. 14. Drive the car. Make sure she sounds ripe. 15. Factor in exhaust to make it to your liking. Cats are expensive and clog and break down thru the years.. The pre-cats may do the same. A car that has exhaust work already done is a plus but check you local state inspection laws to make sure the car is up to snuff.. The last thing you want to do is get a car with test pipes and find out that it will not pass emissions testing then you gotta fork out alot of cash to make her right to pass. Sounds like alot of stuff but its all important. Me.. I would look for a nice Testarossa with low mileage if that is really what your dreaming about. They are still good buys out there but factor in the sorting.. If you not ready or prepared to sort then park it in your living room and watch tv with her. If you want to drive her and pretent like you have her from new.. Testarossa baby.. Its more raw.. Demands more from you.. Harder to get tires yes.. ugly brake calipers so if you change the wheels the calipers are not gonna do much for sex appeal but it is what it is.. 512TR for $65K scares me.. Spend $60,000 on a nice Testarossa in black if you prefer.. Get her serviced if not done so already, sort her out, and drive her like a dirty b*tch.. You'll be glad you did.. Hope this info helps. There is more and may more will chime in.. Please if someone else can think of or add anything please chime in. Its late in the day and my brain is fried.. lol. Mr. Chairman
Go for the 512TR. If it helps I just bought a 94 512TR 3 months ago, under 13k miles, recent service done with luggage for $100k. The car was pretty perfect. I know thats ALL the money but if you want a nice 512TR your going get what you pay for. I missed a 94 with 4k miles that sold for $104K as well. This is my second 512TR that I have owned and regret selling my first. I have had many F cars including a 288GTO and F40. There is something about that 12 cylinder that I desperately missed. The market for excellent well sorted 512TR"s are heading north. Good Luck either way.
I think: "it looks fine, but not quite like the poster I had on my bedroom wall, not quite my childhood hero..." That's why I went for a Testarossa. I do find the Testarossa's interior much much cooler than the 512TR one, so unique with the square seats, the old school dash and steering wheel, etc. So yes, the 512 is the mechanically better car. The rest is very subjective. To me it had to be a Testarossa...
Buying a TR...does NOT guarantee you the upgraded "1" piece differential. The serial # DOES!.....I sure someone with that ALL Important # will chime in......Mark
Sport Auto in North Carolina has two Testarossa's you might want to look at. 1986 Ferrari Testarossa, black/tan, single mirror, 25,000 miles, $49,500. Just had a major engine-out service done. http://www.sportauto.us/02_inventory/ferrari/1986-Ferrari_TR_Black_Tan_M005K/ 1991 Ferrari Testarossa, red/tan, 15,858 miles, $65,900. In the process of having a belt service done. http://www.sportauto.us/02_inventory/ferrari/1991_Ferrari_Teatarossa_Coupe_Red_5-speed_G041K/ Sport Auto has a great reputation, by the way. Steve Barney and Tom Jones are well known in the south-east part of the country. Usual disclaimer: I have no connection to the dealership or cars. Good luck. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Wow - I didn't know that. I think there was around 2200 total for the production run(late 91 - 94), but I assumed 50% of them would be in the US versus 20%. I wonder why we don't see more sightings or postings from the 80%.
I would go for the 512TR. Just plan on all the items listed by Mr Chairman - and you'll have one bulletproof car for years to enjoy.
SEE ITEM 7, THIS APPLIES TO 512TR's ***************************************** See SB 30-23, 7/01/94 If you have gear box number 1370 or later IN A 512TR you are a lucky guy. The info below was pulled from an older thread in 2007 ************************************************** 1. SB 30-16, 06/01/92; applies to 512TR and F-40 Casehardened ring nut starting with 512TR Gearbox no. 385 a. Lay & Trans shaft ring nut, replace 100729 with 150918 b. Clutch shaft ring nut, replace 125500 with 150304 c. Main shaft rear ring nut, replace 105764 with 150920 d. Main shaft front ring nut, replace 104713 with 150921 2. SB 30-17A, 03/07/94; applies to 512TR, 348, & Mondial Ring nuts for gearbox shafts for 512TR starting with assembly number 10970 (this is a different number than the gearbox number & is found on a plate between the right fuel filter & the rubber air induction hose. a. Ring nut fixing driven gear on front of secondary shaft replace 150918 with 153068 & increase torque from 220 Nm to 280 Nm b. Ring nut for clutch shaft replace 150304 with 153066 & increase torque from 160 Nm to 220 Nm (Note: This is another change from SB30-16) c. Ring nut on rear of primary shaft replace 150920 with 153067 & increase torque from 220 Nm to 280Nm d. Ring nut on front of primary shaft replace 150921 with 153060 and increase torque from 220 Nm to 280 Nm (Note: Another change from SB30-16) e. Ring nut on front of primary shaft replace 151834 with 153060 and increase torque from 220 Nm to 280 Nm 3. SB 30-18, 12/20/93 applies to 512TR (shaft can also be used in 512BB & Testarossa) Propeller shaft from transfer gearbox back of clutch to main transmission. New heavier shaft starting with engine number 31108. Replace 151653 (17mm dia.) with 151651 (20mm dia.) 4. SB 30-20, 03/07/94; 512TR starting with gearbox number 1749 Introduction of an oil feed line between gearbox case & clutch bell housing to improve lubrication of the transfer gears. I won't list all part numbers unless someone specifically wants them as it involves a new bell housing and new gear box case plus other smaller parts (very, very expensive & probably not worth it) 5. SB 30-21, 03/07/94; 512TR starting with gearbox number 1086 A new spring for 2nd & 3rd gear synchronizers. Replace 3 springs, 148248 with 154424 6. SB 30-22, 03/07/94; 512TR starting with gearbox number 1797 A new shaft for the reverse idler gear that has new lubrication channels; replace 150887 with 155475 WHY ARE THESE TWO SB's DATED THE SAME WITH VASTLY DIFFERENT GEARBOX NUMBERS?? DUNNO 7. SB 30-23, 7/1/94; 512TR This is the differential change. a. From gearbox number 1370 replace welded differential 146769 with forged unit 155099 b. From gearbox number 1513 new ring gear with different bolts and locating dows to align with the differential assembly. Replace ring & pinion 110016 with 159069 c. From gearbox number 1513 replace 12 bolts M10X1.25 #103875 with 12 bolts #153710 M10X1 thread d. From gearbox number 1513 add 2 centering dowels 13916370 e. Updated bolts for gearboxes 1512 and prior: Replace 12 bolts 103875 M10X1.25 with 12 bolts 155750 M10X1.25. These are stronger bolts and can be used on all ring gear to differential mating where the old ring gear with M10X1.25 threads is retained. If the forged differential is installed it should be with these new stronger bolts. So any 512 with gearbox number 1370 or later will have the forged differential housing. All after gearbox number 1513 will have the forged housing plus the later ring and pinion gear with locating dowels & heavier bolts.
Good resumé Edvar & Han ! But ... it's not an absolute guarantee that these forged diffs will never show defects ... they can also show problems. I have also seen these with damage .... Go for the 512TR ...
Wow look at all these responses. You guys have some brotherhood here. Thanks so much. The 1987 in my first post had it's wheels bead blasted and refinished. I asked him why, after only 12k miles, and he said, paint was flaking off. He'd spray water on them with a hose, and paint would flake off. Is this something anyone had heard of on these cars? Here is the ad for the 512tr which I am more and more thinking about. http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=18102&endYear=2013&modelCode1=512TR&startYear=1981&makeCode1=FER&searchRadius=0&listingId=328589037&Log=0 I also found another car, which looks even better than my first 2. 1990 red/tan 11k mi one owner no rain, no snow always garaged all records books luggage "excellent condition" $60,000 I will have to call that guy. The "one owner" feature appeals to me so much, for lots of reasons. With so many tr's on market, perhaps I should insist on original owner. If this car has no stories, and I can negotiate the price of the major service into that $60k, it seems like I can't go wrong. Am I correct on that, or is $60k too much even for this, which on paper seems to be ideal. Any lower mileage than this, and I would be afraid of it. I suppose it could have some flaws, but in 11k miles and one owner, how bad could it be? Of course I will have to see if it has been driven recently. I have seen some which have only done 300 miles in last 10 years. Wouldn't touch that with 10 foot pole. I did not know that there were only 400 512tr's imported into usa!!! That is downright rare. Is it legal to import r.o.w. 512tr's into usa at this late date, and register them? That 400 number seems like enough to make my decision right there. That is incredibly rare for a modern car. Thanks for listing those two cars. I had not seen those. I really would prefer a black car. Mr Chairman, what you say really talks to me. I want to pretend like I had this car when it was new. For that, it can't have obvious flaws. That is why I consider a $60k testarossa. Unless $60k is just too much to pay for a car like I am looking for. maybe $50 is the real value. When I see all the cars on ebay, and none of them ever seem to sell, and the high bids never exceed $39k, that scares me. And that is retail. Imagine what a dealer would pay you for it. $15k? that is why I think of a 512tr, because it just seems like the value floor is so much higher. And it helps for there not to be 60 other examples for sale at the same time, like is the case with tr's. The 512tr I found seems great on paper. Of course, with me being the 4th owner, that makes it harder to sell. I have heard that people should only buy with 3 or less owners. Anyway, this 3rd owner paid $94k, has driven it for 6-7 yrs, 3k miles, and nothing has broken, all he has done is fluid changes each year. He didn't do the major because it had just been done by the guy before him, who was a big spender from Maine. He put over 10k miles on it, and did Clutch, brakes rotors pads, major service, water pump, michelin pilots, tubi, etc. Must've spent $20k at least on maintenance. He also put 3M film on the front to keep bugs and rocks from damaging the paint. (is that 3M film ok to use?) Does anyone know of a good place to get a PPI in Wilmington, North Carolina? It is in middle of nowhere, 130 mi. sw of Raleigh. What is one to do? Have it towed 130 miles to a reputable PPI? As for mono specchio, if those are so important and so loved and so rare, why are they so cheap? Seems like I have been seeing the 85-86 cars for $40-50k for the last 20 years. Is this just an incredible bargain? or will they always be trailing the pack behind 512m, late 94 512tr, early 512tr, 88.5-91 tr, and 87tr? One thing that scares me about the 85-86 and maybe even 87-88, is that those cars were new at a time when everyone was high on coke, paying 2x sticker price. Lots of "Rain Man" types flipping them for huge profit, while destroying them in the process, with burnouts, doughnuts, drag races, smoking, crashes, fires, etc. Anything from 1990 on will have been bought by wealthy people prepared to lose big money in order to enjoy owning the car, rather than using it as a vehicle in a quick money scam. Remember "Scent of a Woman" movie? The NYC Ferrari franchise dealer said " the 80's are over" they weren't selling anymore to crack dealers and nobodies. HOOO-AAH. On one hand, the 512tr is a comprehensively updated iteration of a testarossa. On the other hand, it is a different model, from a different decade. I know this would be highly unlikely, but is there any chance that the testarossa's could take off in value like muscle cars did, and leave the 512tr behind as a modern, non classic, non valuable ferrari? Sort of like 67 Vette's are worth 2x the price that 1968's are worth, even though 68 is totally updated.
Here is ad from the 87 I also think about: http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/carsforsale/ferrari/testarossa/1440048.html The guy who owns that 87 is obviously a perfectionist. You see his house and driveway are immaculate. He has an open checkbook policy with his mechanic. He just does not know much about these cars. I asked about the diff, the electrical, and he has not heard about them being problematic. Of course, the printed materials don't usually mention them. The only thing that makes me think is that he put the original tires back on the car after storing them since 1998. Is this because he thought if he doesn't use them now, he'll never use them, or because he wanted to avoid buying 4 new tires. BFGoodrich has a new line of tires out in our sizes, of which 4 can be bought for $600. If you want 1st class Michelin Pilots, you are looking at $2300 because they are made in short runs especially for this model of car, in only our 2 sizes of 16"! His car had the $2300 tires prior to him putting the originals back on, and perhaps he thought those were the only ones available. He did buy the car from a friend of his, so that friend probably told him about the $2300 tires. Also, if those Michelin pilots were put on at 5k miles and worn out at 12k, is that normal? It could be that only the rears were worn. How badly worn, I don't know. I believe they are 180-200 treadwear, which is fast wearing. If car really has more than indicated miles......
here is one you may want to look at.......http://www.cityofcars.com/vehicledetails.aspx?VID=159808840
I've seen that Cavillino Rampante on the front grill only once before on the TR's. Is it original? Also, when did the rear one go from flat black to curved chrome?
