Looking for TR or 512TR to buy

+1000

Robbie has $50,000 of documented service records from the best Ferrari mechanics around. His Car sounds and drives like a dream and he has been anal retentive in fixing the slightest thing in the car since he bought it. Also, he is a car guy. An enthusiast and a great contributor who knows his way around a car. I will tell you why IMHO this matters. Someone with advanced knowledge knows where to source the right and best components. He knows what to look for and who to bring it to for service. This is another huge component of ownership. I can't tell you the number of guys I know both in the Ferrari and Lamborghini world who dump tons of money into their car but who use the wrong service people who are ripping them off blindly. After their engine out service, they actually have more problems than they started with.

I have always said that if Robbie was serious about selling the car he should advertise it with it's complete service history because this TR is sorted the way it should be. The first person who comes to see and drive that car will buy it. Also, as I have mentioned in previous posts, TR prices are on the rise. This is the start of great things to come. When a mature car(20 + years old) starts to rise in price(like the Daytona, Boxer, Countach, 57 Vette started to some years ago) they usually don't go back on price but continue to rise. The TR is just starting to hit it's stride. I greatly respect Brian Crall(F Chat Name Rifledriver - Ferrari Ind Mechanic) who stated years ago that it was becoming harder and harder to find a well sored TR amongst the 7177 produced. Production ended in 91 - they are becoming more iconic by the day. Find a well sorted example that you will enjoy on the road for years. In my opinion, Robbie's fits that bill in every way.

One more thing when you see the senior members of a forum like this give a plus 1 in agreement, it is giving you a clue as to who they think has what you are looking for. These members know the TR, they own them and drive them and have been around this forum for years. That in and by itself means alot. As a side note - they are a great group who will always be there for you.

Jim McGee and Dave Helms -Top of the Ferrari Food Chain. Jim is at Pocono Sports Cars in PA and is a consultant here on F Chat (Dr. Ferrari). People send their Ferrari to Jim from across the country because they know he is honest, fair and a great Independant Ferrari Mechanic. He was workinf for FNA when the TR first came off the line and knows the TR especially well. Dave Helms is also a consultant and owns Scuderia Ramparte - TR owners owe him a debt of gratitude for his work on finding the best alternatives to sort out our cars.

"A wise King has many counselors but in the end chooses his own fate."
Me

You owe it to yourself to check the car out if for nothing else than it will serve as a benchmark for what you should be looking for.

 

Thanks for the kind words brother.. Shes not your average TR..

R

 

What exactly does sorted or sorting mean?

 

Can I get an Amen....

Couldn't have said it better myself. Anyone seriously considering a tr should have this car at the top of their list.

 

Do a search.. read thru the TR section..

R

 

I tried and couldn't find a clear definition. Can you give me a one liner?

 

The first car I considered was Mr. Chairman's car. Because of the fact it was sorted, and also all the recommendations by respected members here. I spoke with him at length on the phone. At that time, my priority was just to have a fun car to drive, and that was looking perfect for me on paper. But I later realized that I also need to very carefully consider resale ability, in case a family member needs an unexpected medical procedure, or some other unexpected financial event. For those members in other countries, this may seem interesting: In the USA, we have no real healthcare, and if you get sick, it costs roughly $50,000 per week in the hospital, and that is just the room rent, drugs, and tests. That does not include any surgery. If you want the problem actually fixed, and they need to use a knife, it generally runs to the $250,000 range. When I had meningitis, it was 8 days, $60,000, no surgery. My sister got a pacemaker. That was $280,000. Plus maintenance forever @$2,000/month cash.

Mr Chairman's car has a couple things that I can't get involved in. One is the washed title, and the other is that it has been available for a very long time at very cheap price, and even with the recommendation of very respected people, it still won't sell for $45k. I think this is a damn shame and makes no sense, but I just can't ignore that. If this were 10 years ago, when I had an extra $1m in cash, I would not think twice about it. But now, in the great depression, I just can't do it. Has nothing to do with the car itself. I personally don't care about washed titles.

Mr. Chairman has made no attempt to hide this, of course, and therefore I don't think I am doing him a disservice by mentioning it. In fact for some people, I think his car is still a very good deal.

I also have a bad heart. I need air conditioning. Mr. Chairman's car did not have it when I last spoke to him. If I bought his car, I'd want to spend another $10k on it, fixing the a/c, the bushings, upgrading the differential, and I'd still want to get it painted after that. And don't start about fixing my heart instead of buying the car. I will never be able to afford that. I also don't want to live much longer. Another 10 years will be more than enough. I just want to outlive my 76 year old very sick father, and then follow him swiftly away to a better place.

 

Hi

This is my take
For example : a properly maintained Ferrari
The testarossa wiring/electrical connectors were just not " heavy duty " enough to maintain optimum efficiency for several decades. This manifests itself into many varied poor running issues and roadside breakdowns. Most owners will just shrug their shoulders and accept these issues as part and parcel of older F car ownership. So long as regular maintenance schedules are followed and the service book stamped-then proper "maintenance" has been seen to be carried out and future saleability is ensured.

Example : a properly sorted Ferrari
This testarossa will have had all the scheduled maintenance as per the factory just like our first example-however this car has had a Dave Helms gold connector kit installed-this allows all the electronic control systems to send/receive full strength signals, as good, if not better than when the car left the factory. This results in smoother idling, no hot start issues, sharper throttle response, no burnt connections in the fuse box etc etc
There are many examples of this type of work to sort our cars such as diff upgrades, coolant and fuel pipe upgrades, fuse box upgrade........

What is worthy of note is that nearly all of these upgrades are virtually indistinguishable from a "stock" car

Just my two penneth and I hope it helps

tr boy

 

I am looking forward to doing some service and updates myself, for fun. For me, working on cars is my favorite thing to do. When I switched from Dee-troit iron to Rolls Royce Corniche's, the increase in quality was astounding, and the work was so much more enjoyable. On american cars I needed torches to get bolts out, while on the RR, I didn't even need a wrench. Even on the most difficult bolts on the exhaust manifolds. On the RR, just a 1/8 turn with a small box wrench, and the rest came out with 2 fingers!! On a 40 year old car! On an american car, those bolts would have broken, and had to be drilled out!!! I decided not to buy any more cheaply made american stuff. I feel that the Ferrari will be the same way. High quality like the RR.

For the TR, I have plans to fix the fuse box myself, using my own stuff. My ideal plan for that is to remove all the printed circuits and make a robust fuse and relay board using the best new heavy duty components. I figure the parts will cost $500 and it will be made like an industrial electrical panel. No white plugs, no printed circuits. No weak pincher connectors. No pins. Rather than a patched up, previously fried, badly designed Ferrari piece, with 6 circuits bypassed, I'd like to have a totally new system. And water proof connectors, probably Deutsche or Metripack, in oversized sizes to prevent heat and bad connections. Sometimes I think of doing it without any disconnect plugs at all...I mean... Just hardwire the car to the fusebox and relay sockets. The way most cars are made. Why should the fuse board have to be easily removable with separate disconnect plugs and sockets, if it is never going to break? Besides, the way I plan on building it, It will have 5 relay blocks, (4 relays each) and 4 fuse blocks, (6 fuses each). Any of those 9 blocks can be removed separately from the board with screws, and then disconnected, so perhaps a separate set of disconnects just off the board is unneccesary. The more connections, the worse things get. But, with the Deutsche or Metripack connectors, they are so good that it is almost like a straight wire.

I know this idea would ruin the car for judging, but it would make it reliable and eliminate the cause of front fires. To me, that seems more important. Are there a lot of people here who would see such an improvement as a negative aspect? (this goes to the maintaining vs. sorting issue, and also the "parts must have yellow boxes" issue). Perhaps this improvement would make the car un sellable. Perhaps people require the original equipment, no matter how bad it is. I don't have a big name like Dave Helms, so my work will not have any value in the resale market. I am sure Dave Helms makes the best patch up available, but it is still a patch up of a fried badly designed box. Nothing against him at all. I just don't like the way those original fuses are held in with those terrible tiny rusty old weak pincher things. Even with low current, I hate them. And stacking all these printed circuits is dumb. I am from old the school. I like heavy wires. Not computer traces stacked together tightly, ready to melt and ignite.

I also plan to put the brand new updated differential from the UK.

 

$10,000 for A/C and a diff.. wow.. Funny you mention the air conditioning .. I just found a compressor and picking up on Monday.. then off to Jim for the install and charge up. While its there I will address the fan speed transistor.. I think its important to buy what you want and how you want it.. One thing I can agree with is that my car won't sell for $45,000.00.. It will sell for $55,000.00 and she will sell if I choose to let her go.. The prices are rising.. Cars are running in the seventy/eighty range now but they are not sorted. Addressing the bushings? even if the car has 1,000 miles on her.. 20+ years you can bet your gonna need bushings.. I just dont think that your average seller is going to be honest enough or actually know any better to tell you.. No dis-service or any insults taken.. We are all here to help and assist when necessary. but what I will not tolerate is someone saying that your gonna need $10K to make my car right (and you never seen the car).. thats a no no.. and I recommend a retraction.. We are cool and everything.. just watch your mouth..

R

 

Thank you. Besides the fuse box and diff, are there anymore well known/common TR flaws? I know there was a fuel and water pump recall. Do the OEM upgraded parts do the job in these cases?

 

Andre.. first your saying your looking for something that almost new to have a dream about having the car from new.. worrying about re-sale just in case someone gets sick.. and we all understand and get that.. then you say what you just said above and it contradicts everything you said earlier.. wtf.. You think your gonna have a sellable TR after you manufacturer your own circuit board and possibly hard wire everything with no connectors. Are you kidding me.. then your talking about a fuse set up that does not even exist in the TR.. please show me the tiny rusty pincher things you are talking about. Your thinking BMW brother.. not Ferrari.. or at least Testarossa.. Now I'm suspect.. what are you looking to do.. you tickling our balls.. and to call Dave Helms work a patch up. ?? You crazy? Its far from a patch up.. Its the solution.. the only one. Your not making sense and now I am starting to get annoyed.. Boys get the popcorn out.. Ding Ding..

R

 

The difference between sorting and maintenance is that maintenance involves keeping the car in proper factory working order with an understanding of the additional requirements of time and miles. Sorting, is a different thing altogether, it requires an in depth of understanding of the vehicle dynamics and electronics and the skillset and experience to believe you can improve upon the factory efforts. "Sorting" upgrades are best left to those few experienced experts like Dave Helms, Rifledriver, Jim @ Pocono, Tony @ Algar, Newman and a very short list of others. Though individuals can do the proprosed upgrades or give it to a competent mechanic to perform. The last car in hell I would ever buy, be it a Ferrari or a Honda, would be the one where an owner decided he could figure out a better mousetrap himself.

Many a Ferrari mechanic has made a living off well intentioned individuals who get in over their heads. I just saw a 348 a few weeks back at a mechanics shop. The car was totalled....literally. The amount of money it would cost to diagnose and repair all the owner's misguided fixes where more than the value of the car... it doesn't even run anymore.

In short, A Dave Helms electronic connector kit, for example, adds to the cars value, Jim Smith's home made circuit board detracts exponentially.


His argument doesn't make any sense to me either, but you know what, as my business partner always says, "Some things you just can't teach"

 

If you buy a TR, 512TR or 512M, you must fully understand the word budget is out the door.

There are many types of TR owners but the most common are:

1. One that will wax her monthly while parked in the garage with maybe 1,000 miles total driving per year thinking of her as a retirement and waiting for value to increase. Well and if it does increase, what does that mean??? (A mistake if you ask me) there are better investments instead of waiting for a TR to go up in value.

2. One that takes her out and let her breath some fresh air. Like my TR, will be driven as often as I can. (5,000) miles or more per year.. No hesitation at my end to miles being racked on her and I am not worried about future value. The future value for me is equal to joy I get every time she revs up and I hear the hummmm of those 12 cylinders.

My friend, I don't know you but looking at your post and I agree with Robbie that your stories don’t add up. Perhaps you are not sure if a TR is the right car for you. If you are worried amount the money that can go into her and buying the car for future value, think again... Don't buy any of them... These cars appeal to many who are on a budget to buy their first Ferrari not realizing Ferrari ownership does not require a budget, If you play you must pay.

In my mind, I don't think of an opportunity when I buy a car to make money, so when I buy one, I intend to drive them and enjoy them.

Think again about what you really want. TR ownership is not for everyone!

 

Just saying a TR is a great investment is an oxymoron in and of itself unless you find a "bargain" but as they say "an expensive Ferrari is a cheap Ferrari" (great quote but not sure who coined it).

I understand Andre's caution in that he is willing to wait it out for the right car that is liquid enough to flip in case of an emergency whilst enjoying all of it's pleasures in the meantime. I strongly doubt he is approaching this solely from an investment perspective.

Andre, my advise would be to stick to Gold, Silver, USD's and USB's for security and liquidity. We are rapidly approaching some unprecedented times ahead both politically and economically and IMO, a depression would be regarded an understatement.

Take your time with the TR purchase and wait for 1) right car at the right price or 2) your financial situation to improve. In any case, at least wait until 2013 to gauge the political climate. This is well off topic so I'll just zip it now.

 

I meant instead of waiting. I just corrected my post.

 

I am not quite sure where to start. There are just so many things wrong with the above written post I am not sure where to begin. For starters, perhaps you should consider buying a health insurance policy before you contemplate Ferrari ownership.

FWIW, I would not buy anything especially an exotic car if you have to rely on liquidating a Testarossa to pay for your heart surgery.

Mr. Chairman's car has never been, to my knowledge, up for sale on the main circuit -Hemmings, Dupont, Ferrari Market Letter, Ebay, Cars.com, Autotrader etc. It is a steal in the current environment for $55K.

Having said that, I wish your father the best with his health.


Marco............I told u so.......................

 

Two more things....

Dave Helms........I hope you are reading this so that you could ask Andre for his help on your "patch job".

Robbie, I didn't realize your car needed a paint job????



Marco......location:twilight zone.............

 

Polo

R

 

Happening every day now, literally. To the point where this is no longer a statement that can be made RE having a knowledgeable tech revive it, they are not even valid candidates for a DIY project, they are best considered Parts Cars! The one thing most have in common? Shinny Paint, there is always a Guppy that will buy a pretty car.

Oh Yes, I read them all, there was even a time when I was bewildered by this type of thing. Lets break this down a bit..... A year or two ago there was a Black TR in CA where a new owner was going to teach all us doorknobs how to REALLY fix these cars the right way. Memory has it the thread started much the same way..... When you have no track record, the justification turns to publicly calling to question those who oppose you as the only means to boost yourself

Purposely Bltch Slap a car and an owner, one that has been sorted from front to rear and has PROVED itself in every respect. I know the full history of Robbie's car, front to rear, start to finish. Let me just say for Robbie's car to have a 'washed' title.... it involved an adjuster giving a 'favor' to a past owner because the damage amounted to nothing more than a minor fender bender at worst. Robbie's gain, I would have dove on his car if it was offered to me at that time! He has chased away every gremlin and methodically repaired even the smallest detail.... and uses the car on a whim, not having to keep a AAA card in his pocket just to go on a weekend drive. A Public statement is made in this manner without so much as even Seeing the car, let alone driving it.... That should raise some red flags!

""Just hardwire the car to the fusebox and relay sockets""...... I need not go any further replying to this statement but doesnt it start to sound familiar? Someone that has never owned one of these cars let alone has been dirty or scarred by one..... has all the answers. That 'in depth knowledge' of a given system was gained where?

I would suggest a review of some recent threads would likely answer many of the questions to why this type of thing happens. We have 'Brilliant Net Experts', some who rise to fame and fortune without so much as a single credential to support any of the claims, some cant even put a damn bolt back in the right spot, thus risking the owner and his family's life! We have the Black TR that I followed through 3 shops and at least 2 following law suits, again another 'expert' with all the answers. We have a thread I am following with much interest where a valiant effort is being made to put solid steel plug wires on a computer controlled car..... just to prove a point.... good luck with that, think you will ever hear "Well, that was a lame ass idea that didn't work"? We have solutions for all these cars problems being designed by the minute without so much as a drive around the block in regards to longevity testing, yet are proclaimed 'the answer' to everything that ails us, and even the prototype batch is immeadiately available for purchase.... Really?!

What is missing here? A Name, who Really is it making these statements? A Background, is there any product knowledge what so ever to support claims? Product Liability Insurance, think it might be a good idea when an expensive part is being purchased for an expensive car... who do you call when it fails? Origin of Manufacture, aside from what we should all care about these days, not all of the worlds products are created equal... a shocker? A VIN number, I sure as hell would want to track these cars so none of my customers end up with one! What is now missing is a verifiable follow up of all of these things, you hear about the great ideas.... How is that REALLY working out 2 years later, 5 years? I know full well, I have to fix them! Follow the money, if you dont think there is a payback for publicly exposing any of these things, think again, there is, the screen names just change. Welcome to the anonymity of the Net.... everyone is an expert in everything and now we add to the list the end all quest to make everything Cheap. "Quality" and "Engineered" are words from our greatest generation, the meaning of which is lost on much of this generation.

 

About Robbie's car, how do I make a retraction?

MR. CHAIRMAN'S CAR DOES NOT NEED $10K OF WORK, AND THE DIFFERENTIAL IS NOT BROKEN.

I did not mean to say it was broken or that it needed work, I am retracting everything I said. If I can edit the post, tell me how. I was trying to answer a question as to why I was still looking for another car. As for the price, I thought it was $45k. I am almost sure that was the price, and I don't know why I got the idea that it was $45 when it was actually $55.

As for me, I didn't want to talk about this, but I don't want heart surgery. I never had the idea to sell a TR to pay for heart surgery. As for health insurance, in my experience, they don't pay. I don't want the thing fixed anyway.

And Robbie, with your air conditioning, that is great that you found the compressor. I was trying to say good things about you and your car, not bad. I didn't think it would hurt anything, saying what I said. The diff upgrade was my personal choice. It was not something that is wrong with your car. I was not trying to say your car needed it. Just that I would want to do it to whatever car I bought. I was guessing about the cost. Some have said $15k before it breaks, or $25k after. I was guessing $10 including the a/c, and I was figuring that was a high estimate. If that is way too high, that is good news for me. I'd be interested to know what it actually does cost. Robbie, you are honest. You are not like most sellers. Most sellers either lie, or avoid the truth. Just as you say, they wouldn't talk about suspension bushings. Or even the a/c. They would have said, "the a/c needs a charge" or, the ever handy, "I don't use a/c". I found it very interesting when you told me about the gold connector kit, and how that made the motor run so much better, it had to be retuned to account for all the good connections. (I hope this is ok to say, I didn't mean to say that the car was running bad, rather that Robbie not only fixed one thing, but then went in afterwards, and made it better still)

Apparently I put my foot in my mouth here guys. I didn't want to make trouble. I am sorry Mr. Helms, and I am also sorry Robbie.. I apologize. I am in awe of Mr. Helms. And I thought the Dave Helms fuse box upgrade was actually a patch job of the original fuse box. Apparently, obviously, it's not. I thought you had to send the original box to him and he would fix it. I don't see how my mistaken comment could hurt Mr. Helms. I am a nobody in this game. Even so, I hereby retract anything I said about Mr. Helms' fuse box upgrade. I was wrong about it being a patch job. I spoke out of turn, and I was wrong and I am sorry.

I certainly got an answer about making a whole new electrical panel. I guess that is not a good idea. I am still curious as to why it is good to have the white plugs rather than hardwiring the panel to the car. (this is just in theory, I don't intend to do anything, and I am not trying to say Mr. Helms has done wrong, in fact this has nothing to do with him) I would truly be interested in an answer to this question. In order to make it impersonal, and to make sure I don't upset anyone this time, lets just say that this is on a theoretical car. I think it is a valid question. Every car I have dealt with has the panel hardwired, so I am obviously missing something here. Does anyone know the answer to this? Is this simply spillover of racing technology, where each part should be easily unplugged and replaced during a pit stop?

 

Really, this TR search is driving me a little nuts. Here I am, after 25 years of reading and wanting this particular car, and now I am ready to buy one. But it is no where near that simple. I am faced with no less than 68 of them on the market, all over the country. I am looking at descriptions, pictures, carfaxes, calling owners, trying to pull a needle out of a haystack. Trying to separate lies from truth, and trying to imagine what the condition of the cars actually is. (this is where Robbie's car is a walk in the park) I find myself noting on the carfax, how many miles driven recently, how many owners. I even look at the pictures to see if they have the a/c turned on, to try and imagine if the people actually use the a/c. The cars all look the same, one after another, picture after picture and it is making me a little loopy, I guess. But this is emotional and frustrating. I am a little afraid. That is why I ask so many questions. I guess I should be patient. I have bought lots of cars sight unseen, and never had a ppi. I have never had a problem. I have always sold the cars for more than I paid. So this is very different for me. Not being able to buy the car without a ppi, not being able to make mistakes without $20-$30k loss. Not being able to even drive the car without doing a service. (unless it is done already)

Also, there is this 512tr that I want to buy, but it is in the middle of nowhere in wilmington, NC, and I can't find anyone to do a ppi, or to even look at it, and I can't get down there myself. The guy who is selling it says there is someone to do a ppi, but how can I trust that? This is so majorly frustrating, because I feel a 512tr would be a good way to go, and every time I see that one in pictures, it speaks to me. And I don't see them in my price range very often unless they are junk. Right now, I only see 4 available, compared to 68 tr's. I know, that if I had to sell it, which I don't anticipate, a glut of 512tr's on the market is unlikely.

All I was trying to do was get advice. To gather opinions and facts from others. I had no motive or desire, whatsoever, to profess to know anything, and especially to know better than a Ferrari GURU like Mr. Helms. That would be ludicrous anyway, and nobody would believe me. I am obviously very long winded, this is a curse. And often times, my overly long descriptions and explanations are worded in such a fashion as to be construed as professions of knowledge or defamatory remarks. Please don't take them that way. In future I will keep my comments very brief, and not mention any names. I'll try not to post unless I really have a bad problem, and I'll try and wait until I get my car before asking anything else. After all, I enjoyed reading for many years before I ever got involved in the conversation, and I seem to lack the tact necessary to avoid insulting and upsetting multiple esteemed members. I feel bad about that, and I wouldn't have dreamed about doing it on purpose.

 

No, that isnt the answer, most often that is what leads to misunderstandings, just remember, everything posted has 2nd and 3rd level effects. "Mr. Helms" lives in Texas and is my all time personal hero, AKA Dad. Im just Dave, a dirtball mechanic in a nothing little shop in Colorado that has committed many thousands of NO PAY hours of research to STOP the "Patch Fixes" that are ruining this entire industry and the cars we enjoy, hence my strong reaction to the suggestion you made.

For years I kept my feelings to myself and tried to respond only in a positive way to negative Web statements. The end result of that effort had a reverse affect and I admit now days I have something of a hair trigger. The Boulder Milktoast Dave was never who I was, just who I wished I was, you would have to know the full history on this site to understand. I crossed the 40 year point working on Red Cars a few years back, am pretty calloused to this type of thing now and wish for the days when this was respectful folks sharing a passionate hobby together, to be back. I too offer my apology for my scorched earth response in hopes this was all a misunderstanding of a written word, something I myself have Perfected to an extreme!

You are entering into this market at a troubling time when you can believe only a portion of what is said and written. You need to take in everything you read and then carefully process it, assuming it is Horseshlt and looking for a way to prove otherwise. "Web experts" have driven away 95% of the Pro's who have paid their dues in this industry and actually know of what they are talking about based on a long history with the Marque. Any industry where there is Big Money and Flash, brings those looking for the promise of parting that from those that have it.... Welcome to the World of Ferrari. A rising market is met with flashing neon signs of those with no background looking for the promise of fast money and ego driven fame, I have lived through 3 of those times in my own career doing this, right now being the start of the 4th I suspect.

Hit the "Reset Button", READ and ask questions, process everything you gather, sort the Wheat from the Chaff and this will be a valuable resource for you..... with Robbie being one of the guys who has done it right, is now enjoying the rewards of that effort and has no hesitation to call it straight as he see's it. Beat up ideas and theories but make sure to state that is what they are, just ideas, and this group of guys will help make your pending TR ownership into the dream you have had. We have all been, or are there now, myself included with my recent purchase of a BBi, one I cant drive and must stay under a cover until serviced. You think wanting to have a Red car is bad... try having it but cant Use it!

In all sincerity, Good Luck on your quest, no it isnt simple, it is quite difficult in reality.

 

25 years of searching? Wow! Since 1987 you have been searching for a TR?

I will have liked them, bought them, drove them, sold them and moved on in 25 years.