Early 275 question

My first post in this section (I enjoy the depth of knowledge available here).

I have graduated from a 308, to a TR, to a BB and suspect I may not be done yet.

I love the look of the early 275 GTB cars but was curious if the lack of a torque tube and other refinements makes it less of a pleasure to drive. From what I can read on the subject, the possibility of buying a car without an aligned drive shaft makes for vibration and longevity issues.

Does the market discount the early cars as a result?

Does the lack of this refinement mean that the early cars are less pleasant to drive, is this something which is different from car to car? I understand that a perfectly aligned driveshaft is the key, but I also realize that sources may have overblown what might be a minor issue.

Thanks to all.

 

I read recently that John Surtees said something like that when he raced the early 275GTB, referring to the drive shaft, that it was like driving a car with a big hinge in the chassis. Not a full answer to your question but the Michael Sheehan article in the link below from 1998 gives a brief view on all the 275 GTBs including a reference to the drive shaft on the early cars. It would be very interesting to find out people's experience of the 275GTB Short Nose, the problems actually encountered with the drive shaft and if there is a remedy.

http://ferraris-online.com/pages/article.php?reqart=SCM_199810_SS

And from 2004.

http://ferraris-online.com/pages/article.php?reqart=SCM_200401_SS

The following is from the RM Auction advert for the 275GTB/6C with Alloy body s/n 07933 which describes the "interim" drive shaft set up.

"Another common point of differentiation is driveshaft configuration. The earliest cars were fitted with an open Hotchkiss-style normal U-joint and driveshaft setup, the perfect alignment of which was crucial to avoid vibration. Unfortunately, the driveline could become misaligned over time, and sorting it out required skill and special training. Ferrari therefore switched to a driveshaft and constant velocity (CV) joint setup with a centre bearing (referred to as the “interim” setup), which made the alignment process much simpler. Ultimately, Ferrari switched to a torque tube setup."

This is interesting from Roelofs: http://www.roelofsparts.com/rp/index.php?option=com_productbook&func=detail&Itemid=26&id=103

Congratulations on your Ferraris btw, especially the Boxer.

 

Thanks for the information, I enjoyed reading it. From your online name, does a Miura reside in your garage? I am also a old Lamborghini fan, but this may not be the place to mention that.

 

The choice and preferences between short and long nose are primarily an aesthetic question. Some prefer the SN, with a larger opening, reminding of the earlier Ferraris. Some prefer the streamlined shape of LN.
I have had and drove both SN and 4 cams. Obviously in this case, the engine is very different. But ultimately the early car is more like a sportscar, noisy and moving fast is the revs. The later car more turbine like engine, more GT than sportscar.
In any case, the real issue of GTBs is the weakness of the brakes, in relation to the weight of the car ( a problem that does not exist on the SWB) and they need a significant amount of work and re engineering to stop the car comfortably.

 

I prefer the short nose cars aesthetically and have learned over the years that if you can get a good engineer to correctly align the drive shaft etc then you should have no problems.....Its the favourite question of first time 275 buyers......Does it have a Torque Tube ?........and I'm certain that 99% of them haven't a clue what it is ......

275's can have weak brakes but I always attributed this to the smaller 14 inch wheels and thus smaller disc area....... However Borrani did / do make a 15 inch wheel that that has the correct inset etc and these can be fitted but using lower profile tyres. I had these fitted on chassis 8359 GT and there was a vast improvement........ To counter my argument and something I can't explain.......GTC's have 14 inch wheels and don't seem to suffer the same malady.

 

Steve......Please do post details. As your also in the UK I would be very interested as to which car you have. I also love them.

 

Gentlemen, sadly a Miura SV does not reside in my garage. I was however involved in the sale of an SV that you owned once??? the ex Jay Kay car, to a gentleman in Hong Kong called Michael Lee when I worked at Pullicino Classics. My father also owned RHD SV s/n 4830 in the seventies.

 

I will say nothing about the Pullicinos...... BUT............I took the car back from Michael Lee.....He was a prolific client in 2000 / 2001........bought 39 cars from me in 18 months.....Not just Ferrari but even a 1950's Ford Zodiac.......Then he had to sell everything and I'm told he now lives in Australia.......The SV was RHD but had been converted by DK from LHD...... The Miura SV was a complete mess and Lee had bought blind from the P brothers.......never a sensible thing to do with them........Graham Shultz sorted the car at great expense and its now perfect..........It now resides in the collection of the Irish gentleman who owns the 250 SWB 3281 GT......... small world
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By the way.......Jay owned the car after Lee and then it went to Dublin.

 

The issue with short nose cars for me is that at VMAX the short nose cars have a lot of nose lift. The long nose cars are better in that regard.

On the day they lowered the national speed limit to 55 in the US as a political protest I drove my 275 alloy long nose from Boston to NY in 2 hours. I wouldn't want to try that in a short nose 275.

 

I think marginally better would be a more correct description......However this issue is only apparent at very high speeds......

 

I'm talking the speeds necessary to properly tune the motor by blowing the original muffler packing out into the night in flaming bits.

 

A fantastic story. Are you planning any interesting civil disobedience in the near future for which you might need a passenger? Out of curiousity, what is the VMAX of a 275 alloy long nose?

Any 275 I might come across would likely live in Canada where, generally speaking, 150 km/h will get your car impounded. The self-policing attributes of a short nose might be a very good idea.

There is a recent thread here about the restoration of a (now silver) 275 which haunts me.

 

Hi, i have seen a very cool fix for this....I will try to get some pictures of the car with it fitted.

Basically there is quite a lot of space in the nose cone area of a 275GTB - i.e. the area behind the grill up to the radiator. An engineer had fabricated an internal aerofoil the was angled to push the nose down more as the air flow increased with speed. Apparently it was very effective! What i liked most about it, it was totally undetectable without very close inspection - you could not see it from the outside through the grill, and you had to make very close inspection to see it infront of the radiator from the engine bay.

cheers Mark

 

Hi, I have these Roelef barakes fitted to my 275GTB shortnose (along with the Roelof suspension set-up) - and the best bit!....they fit behind the 14 inch Starburst alloys!

http://www.roelofsparts.com/rp/index.php?option=com_productbook&func=detail&Itemid=26&id=133

Brake upgrade kit for 275GTB. Using 295mm disks, this kit is 100% homologated for historic racing. Improved decelaration at hard braking, less fade on pedal after some laps and better material and design of piston housings, preventing leaks.

cheers Mark

 

Hi - this is the one you are refering too, it haunts me! Some updates soon, the engine will be on the dyno this week, so all going well we are very close to completion.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=280041

 

Mark,

Does the Roelofs upgrade keep the original Dunlop master cylinder and booster? I have heard various remarks about why the 275GTB brakes are weak. One is that the pad material is important to effectiveness. The other culprit is reportedly the vacuum. The vacuum for the booster is taken (on a 3-carb) off the last manifold, with 4 cylinders contributing. At speed, there is enough vacuum generated, but at low speeds, the vacuum is low and used up after several applications. I have spoken with someone who added an electric vacuum pump hidden in the fender void to solve the problem. Having driven 4-cam briefly years ago, courtesy of a friend, I recall the 4-cam seemed to have no brake issues, I think it uses a different master and servo (Bonaldi?). Having then briefly driven a 2-cam, (granted needing service at the time), it was fine stopping from speed, but low-speed was another matter. The last 5 miles and hour was eternity, pedal pressed as hard as possible, and it just kept rolling the last 10 feet....

 

As I remember it about 160 mph. I also remember you couldn't just
back off the throttle quickly as the car became unsettled you had to
roll off.

If you're going to use it in Canada Mine was pretty good in the snow. Someone, Barcrafter?, made a Ski Rack that fit it pretty well although when I used that I kept
it below VMAX.

 

Hi,

Yes I have heard something similar to this before, but never experienced it myself - I think there may even be a thread on this subject, but I can't find it?

I will be able to tell you more once my car is back on the road.

My car has a fully rebuilt Dunlop servo - I will ask the engineer again, but a simple solution may be just to incorporate a secondary vacuum reservoir tank, I have this set-up on my 61' E-type and the brakes are outstanding.

cheers Mark

 

Yes, it is a small world. It was some time in 1996 that Mr Lee bought the car. Its number was DRY 976K. I don't think the Pullicino brothers were aware of any major issues with it. I was told it had been restored by a well known London Lamborghini specialist in its then recent past and hadn't completed many miles since. It was featured in and was on the front cover of Classic & Sports Car and a few other major UK magazines before being offered for sale at Pullicino Classics. Although the market was very different then and not the point as such, the car was sold for a tiny fraction of what it would fetch today. I remember being very surprised to see in your advert when you were selling it how much had been spent on the car, which, from memory, was around double what Mr Lee paid for it.

When buying any Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati, Aston Martin or any exotic car it would be very foolish not to get it inspected by a known expert for that particular model. This is never cheap but an essential investment, the cost of which can be recovered many times over in renegotiating the purchase price of a car if any major faults are found or save a fortune on a car that would not be cost effective to bring up to standard.

 

I have never driven a 275 GTB short nose but according to EVERY expert I have talked to and according to all the driving reports on both cars I think the experts all agree: the 4 cam is a substantially better driving experience. I actually think the SN is a much better looking car. The large open grill is trademark of all early 1950' and 1960 Ferrari and I was sad when the LN came out as the grill all but disappeared. Aesthetically speaking : the short nose is a much much better looking car. Its the driving experience though that disappoints:

- Lift of front at high speeds
-Very little pull through in early gears

If your really interested you should buy the Octane magazine Nr 27 of September 2005.
They compare a GTB4 a GTB Short Nose and a GTB/ Competition.
The experts all agree: The GTB/ 4 cam is among the all time great Road going Ferrari's and some people say is the best car Ferrari ever made in terms drivability. I have never heard anyone say that about a Short Nose 2 cam car. Again I have never driven both so take my opinion for what its worth.

 

BIRA, is the steel bodied 250 SWB a lighter car than a 275GTB or a 275GTB/4? I had assumed (which is always dangerous) that it is, being dimensionally smaller, until I looked at some books and websites which quote them as being around the same weight.

 

[ I don't think the Pullicino brothers were aware of any major issues with it.

You worked for them.........Are you actually saying they would have either known or cared ???

 

Our steel 250 GT SWB Berlinetta weighs 2,575 lbs. Our steel 275 GTB (early car) weights 2,705 lbs. Both cars with toolkit and spare tire, but no fuel.

 

I don't think they did know and if they did they certainly didn't tell me. As the car was on SOR had they known all they had to do was get the owner to address any issues or withdraw it from sale. For what it's worth I certainly would have cared.