250 TDF vs 250 SWB

To my eyes the front view and the way the wings swoop up and dive down further on the early SWB looks quite like a TdF if that makes sense. From side view the wings look longer with the lights affixed further away from the cockpit which changes the front to rear proportions to the later SWB, and because it looks longer in the front it looks shorter in the back. I may be wrong of course. Here's a pic of 1773GT before it got its vents added to it and 1539GT again.

John, I'm sure you know there are 2 Rob Walker/Stirling Moss SWBs. 1960 2119GT and 1961 2735GT. 2119GT has the early type body I describe above with no side window vents but vents in the body.
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"Single ownership for 14 years" then presumably doesn't include the current owner?

Would it be a possibility that the owner, rather than a non-sale at RM, bought it back himself with a view of putting it on the market again? Perhaps a ploy to raise the realised price? Seems a bit far-fetched, but something seems a bit weird about it.


Onno

 

Loving this thread. Could someone with more knowledge than me (that would be almost everyone, then...) please tell me the background for the two different dashboard configurations on the SWB? To me one looks like a Lusso dash, whilst the other is completely different.

 

This is a blurry photo of1539 at the Paris Car Show 1959.
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I have now........and still love the pure shape. Its interesting that it still wears the incorrect gear lever knob that I fitted in 1984 even though its had a complete restoration.

I sold the car to Phillipe Marq and after him it had several owners. Then in, I think 1997, I brokered the car to its present owner..unless its recently changed hands ...Zambriano ??? spelling... The car went directly to a famous restorer in Fort Worth TX....again names escape me but I am thinking his name was Steve Smith ???? who was instructed to restore the car to its original specification which included the Tan leather. I have to say I prefer it when it was Black. It now looks very much the show car and again I have to say I prefered it when it was somewhat distressed......

When I owned the car it was a lovely old Ferrari.....period. The world was not so anal about chassis numbers and for a long time I had no idea it was the original SWB. I wonder if it still has the second hand GTE steering box that Bob supplied ?

 

Congratulations to you, Paul for having owned the very first Ferrari 250GT Berlinetta SWB built. Great pic, Boudewijn.

 

Bob Smith Coachworks, north of Dallas, Gainesville Texas US,....it will look new, as it leaves there....

They were closed, the night I dropped in with my Ferrari on fire.....I put it out, and kept driving south...

 

I am certain that had you been around then, Edmond, being as passionate as you are about them, you would have appreciated their beauty just as much as you do now. Think of all the beautiful road and racing cars that Ferrari had already made by then. Although others played big parts, Ferrari was the biggest player in making that period in time the "Golden" era. By 1965 Ferrari as a car manufacturing company was only 18 years old, yet as well as the fabulous road cars, it had achieved great things on the track including 6 Formula 1 Driver’s World Championships, 11? World Sports and GT Championships with 9 Le Mans, 9 Tour de France, 8 Mille Miglia, 6 Targa Florio, 5 RAC Tourist Trophy and 7 Sebring race wins which is not a full list, so the huge scale of the Ferrari legend and its place in motoring and racing history was already set in stone. That they are so highly revered and prized today is testament to their beauty and prowess on public roads and tracks and how they were perceived back in their day as new cars.

 

The car looked better then. How did the color change?

john

 

John ...It was always Red but originally with Tan 3218 interior. I have never seen......but have searched for......a period photo to discover what shade of Red. It does appear darker in the photo but it may be the developing process. It never occured to me to get a copy of the build sheets when I had it.........Nearly 30 years ago one didn't think about that or at least I didn't. I think today one would have to get the wretched Classiche to see the records and unless the Classiche department have worked their magic on the car it wouldn't qualify as I know there are many unoriginal parts on the car. Maybe Marcel M has the answer ???

 

You mentioned the GTE steering box and gear knob. What other unoriginal parts were on the car?

 

Ask the owner........being tactful

 

Just found this complete list of chassis numbers from a 2005 (gtofreek) post on this site indicating order made, chassis number, Street or Comp, asterisk for rhd and year made. Interesting from the list is that the first 2 steel cars (1993GT and 1995GT) were RHD, the very first 2 cars that were imported by Colonel Ronnie Hoare of Maranello Concessionaires into the UK. (Mike Hawthorn, before his death in 1959, had imported 2? previously.) These cars, although steel bodied, had competition features.

# CHASSIS# TYPE YEAR
1 1539 GT CO 1959
2 1613 GT CO 1959
3 1739 GT CO 1959
4 1741 GT CO 1960
5 1757 GT CO 1960
6 1759 GT CO 1960
7 1771 GT CO 1960
8 1773 GT CO 1960
9 1785 GT CO 1960
10 1791 GT CO 1960
11 1807 GT CO 1960
12 1811 GT CO 1960
13 1813 GT CO 1960
14 1849 GT CO 1960
15 1875 GT CO 1960
16 1887 GT CO 1960
17 1905 GT CO 1960
18 1917 GT CO 1960
19 1931 GT CO 1960
20 1953 GT CO 1960
21 1965 GT CO 1960
22 1993 GT* ST 1960
23 1995 GT* ST 1960
24 1997 GT CO 1960
25 1999 GT CO 1960
26 2001 GT CO 1960
27 2009 GT CO 1960
28 2021 GT CO 1960
29 2025 GT CO 1960
30 2033 GT CO 1960
31 2035 GT CO 1960
32 2053 GT CO 1960
33 2055 GT ST 1960
34 2067 GT ST 1960
35 2069 GT ST 1960
36 2083 GT CO 1960
37 2095 GT CO 1960
38 2111 GT ST 1960
39 2119 GT* CO 1960
40 2127 GT CO 1960
41 2129 GT CO 1960
42 2141 GT CO 1960
43 2149 GT CO 1960
44 2159 GT CO 1960
45 2163 GT CO 1960
46 2165 GT CO 1960
47 2177 GT ST 1960
48 2179 GT CO 1960
49 2209 GT CO 1960
50 2221 GT ST 1960
51 2231 GT CO 1960
52 2237 GT CO 1960
53 2243 GT ST 1960
54 2251 GT ST 1960
55 2265 GT ST 1960
56 2269 GT ST 1960
57 2283 GT ST 1960
58 2289 GT ST 1960
59 2291 GT ST 1960
60 2321 GT CO 1960
61 2335 GT* ST 1960
62 2347 GT ST 1960
63 2365 GT ST 1960
64 2389 GT ST 1960
65 2399 GT ST 1961
66 2417 GT CO 1961
67 2419 GT ST 1961
68 2429 GT ST 1961
69 2439 GT CO 1961
70 2443 GT ST 1961
71 2445 GT CO 1961
72 2455 GT CO 1961
73 2491 GT CO 1961
74 2501 GT ST 1961
75 2521 GT ST 1961
76 2549 GT ST 1961
77 2551 GT ST 1961
78 2563 GT ST 1961
79 2589 GT ST 1961
80 2595 GT ST 1961
81 2613 GT ST 1961
82 2617 GT ST 1961
83 2639 GT ST 1961
84 2643 GT CO 1961
85 2649 GT ST 1961
86 2667 GT CO 1961
87 2669 GT ST 1961
88 2687 GT CO 1961
89 2689 GT CO 1961
90 2701 GT CO 1961
91 2725 GT CO 1961
92 2729 GT CO 1961
93 2731 GT CO 1961
94 2733 GT CO 1961
95 2735 GT* CO 1961
96 2765 GT ST 1961
97 2767 GT CO 1961
98 2787 GT CO 1961
99 2807 GT CO 1961
100 2819 GT CO 1961
101 2839 GT CO 1961
102 2845 GT CO 1961
103 2863 GT ST 1961
104 2909 GT ST 1961
105 2917 GT ST 1961
106 2935 GT ST 1961
107 2937 GT CO 1961
108 2939 GT CO 1961
109 2973 GT CO 1961
110 2985 GT ST 1961
111 3005 GT CO 1961
112 3035 GT ST 1961
113 3037 GT* ST 1961
114 3039 GT ST 1961
115 3067 GT* ST 1961
116 3073 GT ST 1961
117 3087 GT ST 1961
118 3107 GT ST 1961
119 3113 GT ST 1961
120 3129 GT ST 1961
121 3143 GT ST 1961
122 3169 GT ST 1961
123 3175 GT CO 1961
124 3233 GT ST 1961
125 3269 GT ST 1961
126 3281 GT* ST 1961
127 3287 GT* ST 1961
128 3315 GT ST 1961
129 3327 GT CO 1961
130 3331 GT ST 1961
131 3337 GT ST 1962
132 3359 GT ST 1962
133 3367 GT ST 1962
134 3379 GT ST 1962
135 3401 GT ST 1962
136 3409 GT ST 1962
137 3425 GT ST 1962
138 3431 GT ST 1962
139 3463 GT* ST 1962
140 3477 GT ST 1962
141 3487 GT ST 1962
142 3507 GT ST 1962
143 3539 GT CO 1962
144 3551 GT* ST 1962
145 3565 GT CO 1962
146 3577 GT ST 1962
147 3605 GT* ST 1962
148 3615 GT ST 1962
149 3639 GT ST 1962
150 3657 GT* ST 1962
151 3695 GT ST 1962
152 3709 GT ST 1962
153 3735 GT ST 1962
154 3771 GT ST 1962
155 3815 GT ST 1962
156 3829 GT ST 1962
157 3847 GT ST 1962
158 3863 GT ST 1962
159 3877 GT ST 1962
160 3911 GT ST 1962
161 3963 GT ST 1962
162 4037 GT ST 1962
163 4051 GT ST 1962
164 4057 GT ST 1962
165 4065 GT ST 1962

* = RHD
CO = comp
ST = street

 

3895 is missing, 2491 is believed to have been a Cal Spider. 2 Bertones (1739 & 3269) and 4 Coupe Aerodinamicos (2429, 2613, 2643, 3615) are also listed, but 3469 (PF Coupe Specialé) is still missing.

 

Excellent, Kare. Thanks very much. You are the 250GT SWB Berlinetta Oracle of Information as I'm sure you are of other Ferrari models too. Do you know the source of the above list?

 

Kare, what details do you have for SWB 3067GT? The list says it's a Street car, barchetta lists it as a Steel car with alloy doors, but other sources, including a learned member of this site, have it as an alloy car.

 

Thanks, Paul for your reply. So you've not only owned the first SWB you've also handled the second, 1613GT. Very impressive is the number of SWBs you've owned and sold. 1739GT is a Bertone Speciale SWB so perhaps that's where some of the confusion comes from. Details here: http://www.coachbuild.com/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=50&g2_itemId=1357

I was just looking at DK Engineering's site. They restored 3067GT RU15, the ex EC/Ross Brawn car and describe it as "the only RHD alloy street car produced." (Were there other alloy street cars in LHD form?) With from what you say about it having comp interior features and the alloy body, presumably its "street" status must be from having a street/non comp engine and suspension? Details here: http://www.dkeng.co.uk/restorations/50/Previously_Restored_Cars/Ferrari_250_SWB.html The above list regarding 3067GT is correct then as it only lists Street and Comp, and not Steel and Alloy.

I posted a video of 1993GT in this thread recently. Yes, lists can be dangerous and confusing. Ferrari cars, especially from this period, cannot be generalised.

 

I haven't seen 3067GT for many years ....other than in magazines etc.....However I did know it well in the late 1970's to mid 1980's when it was owned by Michael Hall a stockbroker and huge enthusiast for older cars. Im sure Adrian Hamilton sold it for him and I THINK...it was directly to Clapton. All the time I knew 3067 it was painted a very dark Red but DK painted it Silver when they restored it.....MUCH prefer the dark Red.......Did they paint it Silver as EC likes Silver cars...his Lusso also is Silver... or was that its original colour ? 3067 definitely has a FULL alloy body......I am as certain as I can be from memory, a crackle black dash and the bucket style sports seats. Definitely NOT a comp engine and I have never considered the suspension.......I suspect as normal.

I think you will find there are many SWB's that dont fall exactly into a distinct category. They were probably the last Ferrari with so many variations........For instance all 250 GTL's left the factory pretty much the same other than the odd interior item such as headrests or glove boxes...... I say again, Lists are dangerous as they can mislead.

 

The former owner of 3067GT posted recently in the Eric Clapton car thread. He sold it directly to him in 2001. His 2 posts are here with a pic: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=141752607&highlight=clapton#post141752607 The car was dark red then as it was on the front of Superclassics magazine in 1995.
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One never knows the exact details of any transactions and as you realise some things have to be kept private. However I do know Adrian was involved in the sale of this car.......Maybe to the guy who posted the above. I remember this as Adrian rather naughtily decided to 'Retain' the valuable registration number but the new owner demanded it stayed on the car !!