1983 400i Auto Chassis 35565 on Ebay

Good day All,

Just documenting these cars, as they come up...

I have to say this one looks like the "cleanest" one I have seen in some time...The paint, interior, engine bay show very well. Also it has a CA BAR Sticker, books, tools, and first aid kit ...etc...Wow... Perhaps someone here knows more about the car?

Cheers,

Sam

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1983-Ferrari-400i-A-GT-Coupe-14k-Miles-Serviced-Calif-Car-Red-Tan-Immaculate-/300789251064?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item46086fbbf8

83 Ferrari 400i Auto
Color: Red Exterior with Tan Interior
Mileage: 14000 miles
Location: Chicago, IL USA

Chassis: 35565
Buy It Now: $29900.00 USD (19 Days remaining) or Offer

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What year is this car really. I'm asking not as an expert but as the owner of an '83 which doesn't have the dashtop vents, the wood grain, or the upholstery details, and with a Chassis Number of 455*** -- considerably higher than 355***.

 

Good day Bill,

I just posted what was in the ad. There is a picture of a VIN plate that was affixed from when it was imported and this clearly shows it as a 1983... The BAR sticker also shows the year, but the 1's digit is somewhat unclear...

Cheers,

Sam
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Okay, the configuration is clearly a series I 400i which means that it was built before 1983. The first series II 400i was serial number 42705 according to my pdf of the workshop manual.

Now, the serial number embossed on the top of the steering column very clearly shows : "35565" which I would slot in most likely as a 1981 year of manufacture.

The interesting questions are about that "importer's plate", which shows that it was manufactured in 1983 and imported to the U.S. by "Haller Simone" and that the car has a chassis ID number of "F101C238429", which has the number "2" where a letter "L" should be and indicates that the chassis number might be 38429.

The "Replacement Identification Number" tag apparently issued by the State of California DMV indicates that the last five numbers and the chassis number are F101CL38429, which also could be for a series I 400i.

A chassis number of 38429 could be a 1981 year or more likely a 1982 year of manufacture.

I wonder why it has two different chassis numbers showing? The place to look would be on the chassis plate near the lower front side of the engine.

 

Remember that the VIN is on the steering column; change the steering column, change the VIN. Many a Ferrari has questionable history precisely because of this, which is why Ferrari stopped putting their VINs on the columns.

 

My 1983 series II also has a VIN stamped on the chassis rail in the engine compartment. Does the series I model have any other locations than the steering column for the VIN?

 

Late models still have it on the column.. Next time you see a 360 or a 355 look through the drivers window!
The vin isn't exclusive to the column, it's on the chassis as well as the column and vin plate..

 

John;

You can grab the manuals from this site of all the 365/400/412 variants, all of them have the chassis #'s located on the right side frame /engine compartment.
http://400register.com/manuals/general.asp
It looks like from the 365 to the 400 Series 1 cars, the plate locations are on page 9, from the Series 2 cars through the 2-412 variants, they show up on page 8.

 

They don't do it any more. Not on the new cars. Believe it or not, there are many buyers who don't check chassis stamps to make sure the VINs match.

 

Agreed. Many don't check. Have had a few through my shop with non-original panels under the rear of the drivers seat. Early '05 was the last time the plate was replicated on the column. Also shocked how many miles are logged in f1 ecu's in comparison to dash mileage...

 

Good day All,

Just Adding Documentation...

Reading back it looks like there is some issue with the VIN ... One would need to check the chassis plate on the car, as it would appear that the steering column chassis number (35565) does not agree with the importation chassis labels (Chassis: 38429) affixed to the car.

Cheers,

Sam

Ferrari Other | eBay

Location: Santa Barbara, CA, USA
Current Bid: $20101 USD (6 days remaining - Reserve Not Met)

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I posed this very same question just now to the seller and it will be interesting to see if: A) he posts in the listing - not always done; and/or B) he even responds to the inquiry. If he does to me (and not eBay), I will share it in this thread:

"All owners of this model Ferrari know each one of them, including this one. Do you have information available that would explain why the steering column chassis number (35565) does not agree with the importation chassis labels (Chassis: 38429) affixed to the car? This is a big red flag with potential fraudulent consequences. Thank you for making the time to explain."

 

Good day OttoB,

To be fair it is possible that the current owner was not the owner when the car was imported and/or the owner when the steering column was changed... and so they may be unaware of the discrepancy. In fact, the reason for the chassis number weirdness could have been as simple as someone replaced the steering column with a used unit and/or were mistakenly swapped? I guess what I am saying is that we have no idea as to what happened... whether it be innocently or intentionally. Regardless of which the potential new owner should do their due diligence and investigate all this just to be on the safe side.

Also... I see that the current owner responded on Ebay to your question... a rather curt response I would say:

Cheers,

Sam

 

A lot of bluster about why it shouldn't matter that the VIN discrepancy is present from a seller who is trying to gloss over that fact while pretending that it is a $50K car!

It could be a simple explanation but the odds are that an answer like this means that there is some serious deception going on.

Looking at the odometer readings from the current ad and the ad from 2 years ago show less than 300 miles traveled during that time. What a shame.

 

I understand that it is ALWAYS best to have a "matching numbers car" in any marque...in saying that what would be the worst case scenario here?

I mean are we talking that this car could be "parts" from various cars; what kind of "deception" could be hiding".

For example, in American muscle we can see that many times the engine and/or tranny have been swapped or upgraded; not a flagrant foul BUT it is not all original if that is your intent to buy ONLY ALL ORIGINAL.

Some of you know I have been following the 400 forum as I would like one; this looks nice although I will not be paying $50K and maybe I am being naive here but what kind of problem would I be buying if the numbers do not match, aside from a hard resell? PPI would be a must! Dogdoc

 

The problem is there is no shortage of 400i autos out there, so having anything that is "Not Kosher" will affect future value- but as you can see with this car- people like "eyeball", and a car this clean will always get a good number.

 

Good day DogDoc97,

This is not the usual scenario for "non-matching" numbers... Usually this term refers to a vehicle not having its original engine, transmission, etc. In this case the non-matching numbers refers to the actual car itself...hence the difference and concern. How much of a concern is it? Given from the past pics, etc it looks as thought the Steering column was changed and the column used was from another car. It would be a whole lot more concerning if the various mounted chassis plates had different numbers...which does not look like the case, but having never seen the car I really cannot say for sure.

So, why would all this be an issue to some? Well, if the car was to be exported out of the US the importing Country officials may have issues with two chassis numbers for the car. As a consequence they could impound the car until the new owner can prove why there are two chassis numbers... the result is a lot of time, effort, and potential $$$ to sort it out...If the car was to stay within the US... well... then what I described above could be a non-issue... I say "could" simply because you never know if some local DMV or insurance company does an inspection and discover the discrepancy... and thus may create issues for an owner... again time, effort, and $$$. The bottom line there is some level of risk involved and it would be up to the potential buyer to determine how much risk they wish to assume.

Cheers,

Sam

 

That is some in depth photography for the 400. Looks great with the lower lip in black.

 

That helped me see the risk and be more informed! Dogdoc

 

I was always under the impression that matching #'s meant the chassis # matched the engine #.
But with Ferrari, the chassis #'s don't match up with engine #'s. The only thing that you can match up are the 3 locations that the chassis # appears,…the plate on the right side engine bay on the wheel well, the # stamped on the frame just below the engine bay plate, & the steering column.
A 4th plate may be required by some states on the driver's door frame or by the federalization shop.

I didn't see the engine bay plate on this car unless it's behind the 'direction of march' sticker. Normally, the sticker & plate are more forward than they are on this car.
I would verify that the plate matches the # stamped on the frame. If the plate is not present in the engine bay, that would be very unusual.
The steering column being replaced does call attention to a possible front-end collision, why else would it be replace??

Indeed, I think the black lip aids in bringing the front to rear lines on the car.

 

Out of curiosity, who has a 400i that has low or reconditioned miles on it that is for sale. I have watched for a while and don't see any. I used a price (US dollars) of 30K, not 50K, as a reference point as some might consider selling for less. My assumption would be lower price would require more reconditioning.
This appears to be a low mileage car. If a PPI verified the facts regarding the use data, it should only need the usual, expensive, maintenance items.
So, who is selling?

 

maybe if we had a 'market watch' thread we would know...

 

I have RH convertible with 9,600 miles. so quite and smooth I would not have believed if someone told me

 

Good day All,

38429 is now on Ebay with a Buy It Now of $55K USD or Submit Offer. Mileage indicated within the ad is 17000.


1983 Ferrari Other | eBay

Cheers,

Sam