Mondial will not start, help please:(

Hi,
I was doing some routine cleaning and re-Collonising the interior and removed the black center switch panel between the front seats so i could get to the fibre optics below which had come out of their housings and to also change the lighter.

The car started great before i did any work on it and even went for the irresistible drive first then back home before i started working on it.

After I finished i tried to start it to put back in the garage and it would not start at all.

It cranks perfectly and turns over very strongly, the battery is brand new and has plenty power but the engine wont fire up at all.

When i removed the black center switch panel there is a status LED for the Clifford Concept 50 alarm which i disconnected because it was in a drilled hole in the center panel held there by a rubber grommet. I simply disconnected the status LED and removed it out from the center panel and then re-connected it, see photo. COULD this be the problem or not?

Could it be a fuel pump relay which the alarm is connected to? Not sure what to do to get to the bottom of this. Is there a fuel pump fuse and where is it? I took out and checked every fuse in the fuse box at the front of the car and are all perfect, are there any fuses elsewhere?

Then again it may be something not related to the alarm LED being removed?

All help greatly appreciated.

Peter
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Hi Peter, sounds like the alarm immobilizer got activated. Try reading the manual if you have it or here is the link:
http://www.manualslib.com/manual/28989/Clifford-Concept-50.html

If your alarm was never connected, then this would not be your problem but lets start with the Big Elephant in the room (ALARM).

best,
Mike

 

Hi Mike,

Great to hear from you and thanks very much for your reply. I actually have that original instruction manual you posted and have read through it but has no trouble shooting page to help. I just dont know what to do here, so frustrating as it was working fine before i disconnected and re-connected that status LED, if thats what the problem actually is?
Many thanks, Peter

 

Hi Peter, this is the part that gets me thinking its your immobilizer when you mess with the LED alarm wiring. Is there a way to disable it or unplug the battery and reset it somehow.
Its odd that it would just happen like that besides a good ground connection problem.

REF in your manual:
Unbreachable Digital ComLink This ingenious Clifford feature guards against any possibility of a thief tampering with the system. Concept 50 maintains a coded digital communications link between the central processing unit microprocessor and the immobiliser’s microprocessor. If a thief tries shorting, cutting or rerouting these lines, the coded data transfer will be interrupted and Concept 50 will instantly immobilise the vehicle and ensure that a thief will not be able to start the engine.

 

Hi Mike,

That thought had occurred to me especially after i read that paragraph too. Its a very complex system as you can see from the instructions on just how to use it and by me disconnecting that status LED it may have triggered off some kind of anti-theft device that it cannot get out of and could be something very simple to resolve!

After the car did not start i disconnected the battery via the cut-off switch and turned it back on but the car would still not start but turn over very strongly.

I have disconnected the cars battery again and will leave overnight and try again in the morning. The alarm has a lifetime warranty which could be interesting.

Many thanks.

Peter

 

You're probably not going to want to hear this, but I'd simply remove every last vestige of the alarm.

I think it is very likely that the alarm has disconnected the fuel pump circuit.

Yes, the fuel pump has a fuse, it should be the fourth one on right hand side of the fuseblock, counting right-to-left from the rightmost fuse. Hard to imagine this would be the problem though, and you've verified the fuses are OK.

I don't know how they interrupt current flow to the fuel pump, but I would assume they have an additional relay in series with the contacts on the fuel pump relay, or they have wired a relay in series with the fuel pump relay coil. Either approach would achieve the same end. If the manual mentions this, you could try to bypass their relay (assuming I'm on the right track here).

With regard to the LED: It seems unlikely, but it is possible the alarm could detect current through the LED and immobilise the car if current flow through the LED stopped. This is not hard to do, but I have no idea if it's part of their tamper detection scheme.

Good luck with this... let us know how it turns out.

 

Peter, I would give Clifford a call and ask about the LED disconnect and could it possibly activated the immobilizer. Toll free emergency helpline at 0800 526708 during normal business hours.

Here is the Concept 50 model UK spec. This bloody thing is over the top on security, to the point the owners with a remote can't get it to disarm. I would rip this out, too complicated for me mate.

link:
http://www.directeddealers.com/manuals/og/clifford/concept50uk_owners.pdf

Here is the wiring diagram if that helps.

Best,
Mike
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That Clifford diagram shows the ignition being disabled, not the fuel pump (although it could be done that way) -- have you put a timing light on it during starter motor cranking to confirm/deny if spark is occurring?

If you can find that added "Ignition Disable Relay", you could just unplug it and use a jumper wire to connect the female terminal 87 in the relay socket to the female terminal 30 in the relay socket (simulating a "happy" alarm system).

 

Hi all,
Cliffords phone number no longer exists and were bought over by a US company called Direct Electronics Incorporated (DEI) many years ago. However they do have a Clifford distributor here in London. They had no idea what the problem could be but did not think that disconnecting the status led would have caused the problem. They put me in touch with a specialist who also confirmed that he did not think the led disconnection was the problem either.
If the alarm is not the problem what else could it be? Maybe the fuel pump relay or something else not considered yet?
How do I test a fuel pump relay if its working or not?

I have almost killed a brand new battery now

Thanks, Peter.

 

Hi all,
Cliffords phone number no longer exists and were bought over by a US company called Direct Electronics Incorporated (DEI) many years ago. However they do have a Clifford distributor here in London. They had no idea what the problem could be but did not think that disconnecting the status led would have caused the problem. They put me in touch with a specialist who also confirmed that he did not think the led disconnection was the problem either.
If the alarm is not the problem what else could it be? Maybe the fuel pump relay or something else not considered yet?
How do I test a fuel pump relay if its working or not?

I have almost killed a brand new battery now

Thanks, Peter.

 

Hi all,
Cliffords phone number no longer exists and were bought over by a US company called Direct Electronics Incorporated (DEI) many years ago. However they do have a Clifford distributor here in London. They had no idea what the problem could be but did not think that disconnecting the status led would have caused the problem. They put me in touch with a specialist who also confirmed that he did not think the led disconnection was the problem either.
If the alarm is not the problem what else could it be? Maybe the fuel pump relay or something else not considered yet?
How do I test a fuel pump relay if its working or not?

I have almost killed a brand new battery now

Thanks, Peter.

 

The ignition -- you shouldn't even think "fuel" until you have confirmed/denied spark operation during starter motor cranking.

(If you do have spark) As a first test, unplug the safety switch on the airflow metering device (near the fuel distributor), turn the key "on" = you should hear the fuel pump run. If it does, your problem is elsewhere; if it doesn't run, try a different ...113 relay in the relay R "Relay for Fuel Pump" position, and a different ...101 relay in the relay S "Fuel injection delivery pump starting-relay" position.

 

Thanks very much Steve,
not sure why my last reply appeared 3 times, it seems nothing is going right.
I don't know where the safety switch on the air flow metering device is or what it looks like, is there a photo maybe so I know what I'm doing?
I will test the sparks and let you know but need someone to help me with that while I stand at the back of the car with the timing gun.
In the meantime while I recharge my now dead new battery is there a way of testing the 2 relays you mentioned?

Many thanks, Peter.

 

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Not worth the hassle -- easier to just try another relay of the same type from another function that is not being used (e.g., from the headlight functions)

 

Just a couple of crazy ideas from an ignorant of this kind of alarms and Mondial too... I don't have one... yet

1) LEDs have a "direction", they function only if they have a current flowing in the right direction. Have you reconnected the led correctly? Probably yes since the cables are color coded but it worth a try... sometimes with dim light could be easy to switch cables. Unless ther is a one way connector...

2) The electronic injected car have a "inertial switch" that cut off the fuel flow in case of accident or collision. I know that it isn't your case but if your car have one of those, maybe it worth a try to look at it.

Other than that I know that almost any alarm thinks that the car was stolen when you disconnect it or you remove the battery (or disconnect it). Try to see if there is some safety feature that is enabled in case like these.
I think that a good expert of the electrical side of the car (sorry I don't know the right word for "elettrauto") can help you to solve this thing.

Sorry for this silly ideas but sometimes, from silly ideas, a good one (and a solution) could be achieved
Regards,
Alessandro

 

Thanks very much Steve,
not sure why my last reply appeared 3 times, it seems nothing is going right.
I don't know where the safety switch on the air flow metering device is or what it looks like, is there a photo maybe so I know what I'm doing?
I will test the sparks and let you know but need someone to help me with that while I stand at the back of the car with the timing gun.
In the meantime while I recharge my now dead new battery is there a way of testing the 2 relays you mentioned?

Many thanks, Peter.

 

Peter,

I think what Steve is asking is you verify that you have spark, if you do, you can swap the relays for the fuel pump by using another of the same relay BOSCH # rather than testing the relay is defective. Surely they all cant have gone bad all of a sudden. see diagram.

My bet to your starting problem is still the Clifford. A Google search on "Clifford Concept 50 car wont start" will turn up lots of folks in your situation with this alarm. Its old, the brain circuitry can get fried and immobilzed your car. I would take the system out, then you have a clean baseline to troubleshoot normally on this Ferrari.

Read this thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1848172

best,
Mike
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Mike, Mulo, Steve, Alessandro,

Thanks so much guys for all the tips and ideas!!!

It has been raining here all day in London and was difficult to start on it in the dark.

I checked the LED and yes it was re-connected correctly as they do only work one way and I also checked the status flashing sequences as in the manual and all is fine too so I assume the alarm is functioning correctly as it also automatically locks the doors and arms itself in 30 seconds as it should. I completely re-connected everything i took apart in the center switch panel between the seats and still it would not start.

I swapped over the fuel pump relay (R) and still nothing. I swapped over the fuel injection (S) relay and it started then stopped immediately and kept starting and stopping immediately each time i turned the key but would not stay on. I removed that relay and got so fed up trying to swap it with another because i just could not pull any other similar one out (25 years stuck solid) so i simply put it back in and hey presto in those dark clouds came a ray of sunshine and the car is now woking perfectly (for the time being).

I checked all 8 spark leads and is running perfectly with a timing gun. I am baffled as to why the relay made it start then stopped then when i pulled it out and put the same one back in it started perfectly? I turned it off a couple of times and re-started and is fine. I will have to buy some new relays to be on the safe side but no one seems to list these original Bosch numbers, any one know if good suppliers?

Thanks again everyone, could not have done it without you!!!!!!!

 

As you've discovered, removing and reinstalling these relays is a fairly violent action that gives everything a good shaking and rewipes the connections. In the starting mode, current to close the fuel pump relay passes thru one set of contacts inside relay S, but, when you release the key to run, the current passes thru a different set of contacts inside relay S (so that's why you can have things fire up OK in the starting mode, but the engine will stop after releasing the key to the run position). Might still be something totally unrelated to relay S, but you've got enough evidence to justify buying a new relay S IMO.

 

Buy a small bottle of deoxit, take out each relay, and the plastic wiring connectors on the fuse board (especially the vertical one right of the relays on the right edge of the fuse panel which includes the pin and wire to the fuel pump and can generate alot of heat when even minor invisible corrosion creates resistance), and put some deoxit on each pin. Do this on connectors to the various computers, and the electrics under the passenger foot area and the trunk where the cat overheat sensor is and you will cure or prevent all electrical ills. Fussy, but easy and highly effective.

Also make sure your battery terminals are clean, and coat with a protective grease to prevent blooming corrosion.

 

Glad its working again and all is good Peter.
I would still investigate further to try and find the cause, the problem may come back based on an intermittent relay or alarm about to go bad, or it could very well be corroded or loose connections on your fusebox .

After changing the generator on my 69 Midget, now it wont start, so I know the frustration you went thru. But the MG is so much simpler. I think I need to polarize my generator, check the grounding again. It has fuel, so more likely not getting enough spark due to coil, dizzy, or plugs. I still need to confirm all of that when I have more time.

Best,
Mike

 

I’m beginning to wonder if it was a stuck relay (if this is possible) and nothing to do with the alarm immobilizer unit or if when i disconnected the led status indicator it caused the issue on that particular relay.

I started her up tonight when i got home from work and sounded great first time, back to normal! Deoxit is great idea and i will try and remove and replace what i can, as i mentioned before, some of those relays are stuck solid in there and may not be possible. They are all metal cased Bosch and not sure where to by new ones from. Anyone know of a good supplier that doesnt charge Ferrari prices

I am hoping it was not a loose connection on that large vertical white wiring connector block on the right of the relays. I did jiggle a few wires to see if any were loose and looked fine.

So it seems it was the S relay which controls the fuel injectors delivery pump that was the problem in the end. A simple fix which I hope is what it was.

Mike, I hope you get your MG sorted out, it looks amazing in the photos!

Thanks everyone!!!

 

I think you can get a better price on relays from electronic distributors like Farnell, Digi-Key, etc. Some require an account (e.g. Anglia in the UK), while others take credit card. I've just ordered a bunch of relays from Mouser Electronics here in the States (Panasonic and Omron parts, all less than $5 US). These are top-quality parts. I've also bought some new Bosch parts. Don't buy generic no-name products in an attempt to save a little.

I think Rock Auto has a UK presence... they are a great source of good parts at good prices here in the States. I buy Bosch relays from them, always competitive prices.

I've been researching the electrical system in some detail, and gathering information as I go.

Here's some info culled from my notes on the three main types of Bosch relays used in our cars. This is still a work in progress. The three Bosch relays are shown in large text, with a description of their contact arrangement and so on. I've listed replacement part numbers that I've thoroughly researched in bold -- I think these are good candidates.

Mini-ISO relays used in Mondial:

---



[size=+1]Bosch 0332204101[/size]
5 pin SPDT relay, break before make (1 Form C)
Coil 85,86
Movable contact 30
Fixed contacts 87, 87a (30 connected to 87a with no voltage applied to coil)

Replacement candidates:

Bosch 0 332 209 137 has resistor across coil for EMF suppression, heavy duty version which handles 50A resistive load on NC connection. (Might be worth investigating)

Bosch 0 332 209 151 should be suitable replacement as it appears to most closely match the original part

Bosch 0 332 209 159 is same as 0332209151 but with resistor across coil.

te.com suggests Tyco Electronics V23134A0008X923-EV-590, not sure of availability

Tyco number 1432785-1 (AgSnO contacts, example I saw is made in China)

These two Omron relays appear to be good replacements:

Omron G8JN-1C7T-DC12 NC contact rated 35A, NO contact rated 20A
Omron G8JN-1C6T-DC12 (weatherproof version of G8JN-1C7T-DC12)

These Panasonic units appear to be equivalent:

Panasonic CB1-12V (40A Standard type)
Panasonic CB1F-12V (40A Standard type, flux resistant housing, might offer better environmental resistance)

The following should substitute, but the unplated terminals are a concern IMO.

Panasonic CB1V-12V (35A, unplated terminals, Sealed type)
Panasonic CB1VF-12V (35A, unplated terminals, Flux resistant housing)

Note to self: Something in the Durakool DG56A series crosses... haven't had time to spec. part number. Hella makes an equivalent... need to look into this too.



---


[size=+1]Bosch 0332014113[/size]
SPST NO relay, contacts 87 and 87a bussed together. (1 Form A ... but with two fixed contacts)
Coil 85,86
Movable contact 30
Two fixed contacts, both labeled 87 (internally connected together) Bosch literature calls this a "double 87 terminal". The TE documentation on Plug-in Mini ISO Relays specifies this contact arrangement as NO_2x87 and "1 form A, 1 NO (2x87)"

Cross references from te.com:
Brand: Tyco Electronics
V23134C0008X901-EV-850 (Cross references from Bosch p/n)

Brand: Tyco Electronics
V23134C0008X901-EV-69A (Cross reference from internal number, may not be generally available)

Brand: Tyco Electronics
V23134C0008Y901-EV-7Z0 (Cross reference from internal number, may not be generally available)

Side note: TE Power Relay F4 product codes all start with V23134, the 'C' which follows specifies SPST NO with dual 87 contacts. So anything that starts with V23134C could potentially work in this application.

Bosch 0 332 019 151 looks like a very good replacement.

Note to self: Hella 4ra 933 332-151 might cross, need to look at specs. Need to look into other manufacturers.



---


[size=+1]Bosch 0332015006[/size]
Technically a SPST NO DM relay (1 Form U)

It has one movable dual contact and two fixed contacts, It can be thought of as a DPST relay with both movable contacts tied to a single terminal. TE describes this arrangement as "double make on armature". Note that the when disengaged, the 30, 87 and 87b contacts are all isolated from one another. When the coil is energized, they are all connected together.

Coil 85,86
Movable contact 30
Fixed contacts 87, 87b

Rating 32v 2 x 15A (from relay markings)

Cross references from te.com:

Brand: Tyco Electronics V23134M0062X915-EV-590 (cross from Bosch p/n)
Brand: Tyco Electronics V23134M0062Y915-EV-896 (cross from TE p/n)

Tyco F4 parts seem to mostly have AgNiO contacts.

Zettler should have a part in the AZ9731 product range, need to look into this.

Since there's only one of these used I'd just get the Bosch part. This contact arrangement is far less common than the other two.

 

Thanks Charles thats fantastic! It really does help.

I have noticed that since i had this problem the other day and whatever i did, the car now starts superbly first time from cold without needing to rev at all. Its like it has a new lease of life.
The problem initiated when i tried starting the car a few days ago and would crank over very strongly (new battery) but would not fire up at all. I swapped over the fuel pump relay (relay R) with another similar relay to see if it was that and made no difference. I then forcedly removed the fuel injection delivery pump relay (relay S) and tried to swap with another but this time just could not get a similar one out so I replaced the relay S back. Since then i cant believe how great it is. Maybe it was the jerking around that freed up whatever may have been causing the problem in relay S?

What i also noticed is that whenever i would re-start the engine after driving around for a while with a warm engine it would need a long turn of the ignition to start again after stopping for even only a few minutes. This no longer happens either, its great!

I will need to buy some new relays and replace the major ones first. I still have the original metal cased Bosch type.

Hopefully this may help others experiencing the same issues. 2 relays are far cheaper and easier to change as a first point of elimination

Many thanks, Peter.

 

Hey, I'm glad that you are back in business!
Alessandro