... another beginner asking about a Testarossa

Hello, I am thinking about buying a Testarossa, in Europe (Spain). I have been doing some research, spending a few hours with the Search function trying to understand what you guys have been discussing about this car so far.

I know this question has been asked many times before, but I see there are questions and answers correspond to very different times, and it could happen that what was right in say 2005 or 2007, now it is not right anymore, since something has changed in the meantime (e.g. fuse box of SR Innovations):

What are the critical issues for a Testarossa?

Let me list what I think I have found so far, and please correct / add:

1. Fuse box: apparently, this problem has been corrected with SR Innovations. Everybody agrees this is something that has to be done. Specialists in Spain confirm the fuse box is a problem (but nobody, as far as I know, knows SR Innovations here)
2. Differential: in this forum, it has been discussed that Newman and Philwozza products are really necessary, since diffs break down, it is just a question of time (when, not if). However, in Spain people tell me this is not a serious problem. Who should I believe?
3. Gearbox: I do not know if gearbox problems are the same as diff problems or not. Some people suggest to change the gearbox for one of the 512TR, but I do not see a specific solution such as (1) or (2) above
4. Distribution, clutches ... tend to be expensive. But that is fine, I understand that before buying the car

Thank you.

 

Do a proper length ppi ...find a car that has been loved with proper traceable ownership....the less owners on the vin the better....finding a car that has had 6 owners the last 9 yrs should tell you it lived a rough life. In this case, your fuse box, diff become more of an issue of concern then.

My 86 has 62,000 Kms and I'm the 3 rd owner and have had it for 12 yrs now , almost half it's life, the diff, and fuse box have never been an issue , yet.... Don't believe all this negative hipe.

Your next step, see how much paper work and service the car has had ...if it has a nice long history where oil changes, flushes have been marked via miles and invoices along with service , you know at least the car has also been cared for and maintained more properly. Therefore, no need to worry about a higher mileage car ...this car typically would be a better purchase than a low mileage car with now data / invoices.

This is the basic first steps..

 

You are pretty much spot on with your items wit the exception of #3.
I have not heard or read that there is any advantage to using a 512TR transmission. As far as I know they are constructed the same with the exception of a heavier propeller shaft (sometimes called an input shaft).

With that said, a possible defect to look at would be twisting of said shaft at the spline area.

Another item is the condition of the connectors in the engine bay. Over time the contacts inside each connector can become corroded with reduced clamping pressure on the male terminal. This can be rectified with the Gold Connector Kit from SRI. IT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE in how well your car runs.

As far as ignoring what some call "Hype".
When a differential blows apart at 10 MPH on a straight road it no longer "hype". (Yes, it's happened. One of many)
When the white block connectors on along the bottom of your main fuse panel turn to a molten mess it is no longer "hype". (well documented by many).
When the propeller shaft in your transmission shatters and takes out part of your transmission it is no longer "hype". (documented more than once).

Of course, you can just roll the dice and ignore the "hype" until it is no longer "hype".
For instance, the difference between a pre-emptive fix on the differential cost half or less than the repair after failure.

These are just my OPINIONS. Nobody has to agree with them but it is always good to be informed when making your decisions.

 

I guess with 7,000 + cars produced, and a handful of cars reported here we should not call it hype, but rather an epidemic?

Have we documented 14 cars yet ? If we have we are still talking .25 % a quarter of one percent failure ........ HYPE !

 

Who called it an epidemic?

I would expect you to say nothing else. It hasn't happened to you yet.

I would like to point out that you are forgetting all of the TR's that HAVEN'T been documented, and I'm sure there are far more than 14.

As a matter of fact, I know that more than 50 replacement carriers have been manufactured and sold in North America, and the number is climbing. Some of these have been installed in Boxers.

Add that to the number of carriers being sold through Phil in the UK and that punches the number higher yet.

No, probably not an epidemic but not something to ignore and blow off as hype based in paranoia.
Here's another that just happened in September, http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384129

To you it's hype. That's fine. Go ahead and roll the dice. Lets us know how that works out for you.

To me it's observation of a design and manufacturing flaw in the carrier housing of these cars. I have owned enough cars to know that you don't assume it isn't going to happen on MY car.

 

If we take your explanation, and equate that to the number of accidents Testarossa owners have had because of exceeding the speed limits then one could use the same logic and start a pandemic that Testarossa's should not be driven over the speed limit.

You and others are really screaming the sky is falling with this nonsense about diffs. Might as well throw in another belt thread now with this that it better be changed right on time before engines blow too now.

I personally know of 12 Testarossa's here in Toronto and 2 512 tr owners, and another 10 bb boxer owners, and not a one on here have changed or upgraded a diff and not one of them have under 30,000kms ... My stats numbers work better than your assumptions of owners around the world.

Aside from joe in Philly and Brian ( rifledriver) and one other in Montreal .... This pending scare tactic is as old as another belt thread.

Easy spasso, not every single tr will fail tomorrow. This rolling of the dice nonsense is beyond irresponsible on your part .... Nobody is rolling the dice with an original diff/tranny in a Testarossa....I have never felt that concern in my 12 yrs of ownership....and if I was looking for a tr back then and came across someone like you posting this...I would have never bought a Testarossa.

Thank goodness I didn't, I would of missed out of 12 yrs of my life and 35,000 Kms of happy driving.

Take it easy, don't lose sleep over it.

 

I would not call it nonsense about the diff Rick. You must remember.. There are a bunch of testarosssa owners who are not part of the Ferrari clubs or part of Ferrari chat. These cars have had failures and others have failed before there was such thing as the Internet.

It is an issue that needs to be addressed sooner rather then later else the cost of repair when it does fail...never mind the safety issue, can and will be obscenely expensive. I have done a number of them before newmans diff was available. I was using the Modena engineering unit at a cost of 4500. Great product and was the only one available at the time.

There are now 3 companies making them and they are selling, so it can't be all smoke and mirrors.

 

Out of the 7000+ built there might be 5500 still drivable and of the 5500 "maybe" half of those are being DRIVEN on a regular basis, the rest sit more or less. So I think your stats overly optimistic by at least 50%.

And owners in the UK, Europe and a few in Australia. Yeah, just a scare tactic. A potential 20k scare tactic ( or in Mels case in Holland a 40k scare tactic.)

You need to quit putting words in my mouth. I did NOT say they would ALL fail tomorrow. The differentials have a design and manufacturing flaw that contribute to failure.
I have no doubt that there will be many that don't fail. I am am one of those people that isn't willing to take that 20k chance.

Obviously you haven't been reading the rebuild threads and or saw the pictures of the near misses..

I'm happy for you,. Good luck.

That is where you and I differ. I was aware of this issue and BOUGHT ONE ANYWAY. I drove the hell out of it for 5 years without looking back.
I changed my mind last fall when Robert Hayden's blew at 10 MPH, an un-abused car. I decided a premptive fix was more cost effective than paying for a catastrophic failure.

Because of this decision I am NOT losing sleep over it.















......................................

 

I'm not calling the diff nonsense, I'm calling this rolling of the dice "nonsense"...this is not Russian roulette with 1 built in the chamber of a six shooter.

A car without records , and many switched ownerships every few years ensures a car more "driven" hence increasing ones odds of all kinds of failure, not just the diff. We have all seen the many videos on YouTube with Testarossa's doing burnouts.

The key is too find a more loved example, where someone or somesones have changed a diff perhaps , taken care of the fusebox, the precious leather dash, and seats....and on and on.

The first rule of thumb for anyone looking at buying anything used is buying a better example, not the bottom feeder cheapest price. Again, lets do the math, even if we guessed at 100 cars including the Testarossa, the 512 and bb boxer .....we are still talking well under 1% of the cars.

Some make it sound that its every single car, and it very clearly is NOT!

 

Now I feel better !

I'm happy for you, I'm not losing sleep for not doing it.

We can always agree to disagree.

 

Awesome, another Diff thread!

We were due!


To the OP,

There is no epidemic of diff failures on the TR. Moreover, most failures appear to occur in cars with an unknown provenance, a history of abuse or a track history. All that being said, Is there a risk that a diff could fail on an otherwise perfect TR? Yes, just as there is a risk your variator on your 360 is going to fail, your rear windows on your Mondial will get stuck, your 355 valves will wear out, your 348 tranny will break, and on and on and on.

Every Ferrari has some risk...pick your poison. You can do your research, buy the best example you can find and accept some level of risk OR

you can spend 5-10K on a quality replacement diff and proper installation (and incidentally, some mechanics have advised me that the replacement diffs can be very problematic to install).

Just know, no matter what you do, no matter how much you spend...Ferraris have a way of biting you in the a$$ HARD. If its not the diff, it will be something, someday... The only good news is that the Testarossa is a quality vehicle that is exceptionally well engineered.

The Testarossa is also the baddest dog on the block. If you need to have the rush from listening that Flat-12 and the knowledge that you are driving perhaps the greatest Icon to ever roll out of Maranello, bite the bullet and buy the damn car...

You won't regret it.

 

Thank you for the detailed answer.

One question: you describe the Gold Connector Kit for the Testarossa. However, when I look at SRInnovations webpage, it says that the kit for the Testarossa is still under development. Is it reliable? Do you know if it can be purchased already?

About the diff: most opinions say the price is about half of having the diff fail and repair. But I see a new piece is priced at around $1,000 (in the UK), and then one would need some hours of an expert to install, but I guess that this can be done while doing a major (I imagine it is necessary to dismount the engine to do the job), so I do not see why the whole price should be more than say $1,500 (considering the engine out should have been performed anyway, so this cost is not attributed to the diff), which is much lower than the $20k quoted above for the repair of a failed diff. What am I calculating wrongly?

 

Thank you for the comments, and in general, to all the other guys commenting on this thread.

I have a question regarding ownership: the Testarossa I am looking at has had 3 previous owners. Most Testarossas here have say between 30k and 60k kilometers. For a car over 20 years, this means these cars have averaged say 2k per year. This is very low. I believe there is a high likelihood most cars have spent a few years basically stopped. I know this specific car stayed undriven for a period of a few years (probably unserviced), after it was bought by somebody else, serviced, and it has been taken care of since then. Is this a red flag? The good part of the story is the owner explains the whole issue.

 

Not a red flag ...my car sat for 3 yrs that did only 74 Kms on 11 yrs with the same belts..., owner number 2 couldnt afford to keep it by year 11....when I bought it in 1999 I was the 3rd owner and drove it basically for a week and to a shop of my choice within 200kms for its service...the car had 33,000kms back then, I now have 62,000kms

As long as you they can prove the last 3 owners on the vin, and have records of oil changes, service and it matches the ODO and the car has its tool kit, warrenty card signed and books you are most likely dealing with a decent cared for car. Get your ppi done by the shop of your choice, not the choice of the current owner.

Make sure they take the wheels off, and check the car with a flashlight underneath for any cracks, potential smack, rust , heavy sweat from non traditional places, repaint, and why ? See when the last time the wires, plugs, rotors and caps were changed....check all the shocks on the car, any leaks ....and have a good look on the interior for leather damage....the Testarossa is all leather, the car needs a lot of cows, and that ain't cheap either.

Take your time, and investigate the cars one at a time, and look for little details, after view 3 cars in a row, you will see for yourself the difference in cars and what you can live with and what you can't. It took my 3 yrs before I found my Testarossa, and saw maybe 7 of them back then ...and no Internet back then

A car with books, invoices and records shows a car more loved, and less risk of being tossed as just a car. Don't be afraid of high mileage cars, or even some precious damaged cars ...as long as their is documentation and you can verify it and its fixed correctly ( not hacked) you can still have a great strong car. Don't let a fender repair deter you.

Good luck

 

There are three of us that have Testarossas', 12 months ago no problems. Now, there is only myself that has not had to replace their diff and rebuild the gearbox. I was once a disbeliever until that happened to my two pals, between us a 66% failure rate, you could of course just call it bad luck, but when bad luck costs as much as Mels did is not nice....Mels is the second failure as well

 

+1

P

 

Thanks. Just to be clear then: when you say "here is only myself that has not had to replace their diff and rebuild the gearbox", the problem is not the gearbox per se, but the diff, right? So, the idea is that if the diff is changed for a robust and new piece (like yours' or Newman's), the combination gearbox + diff is "safe", right?

 

How many Kms on these cars? How many owners On these cars ? How many tranny, oil changes have these cars had,what is the "record history"....and be Honest .... So many factors...let me guess, all of these were show cars , never abused , never tracked, they are the most pristine Testarossa's on the planet ?

Again, how many cars are we talking in total that we are reporting here , have we hit 14 cars yet ? Have we hit 20 cars ?

Ps..sorry to hear of this bad luck for two of your friends, but I fail to see this as "just" a design flaw, and that lack of service and previous potential abuse had nothing to do with it.

How many of these cars , including the 288 gto were treated like a 5.0 mustang with dumping clutches .... There is recorded information supporting many cars were driven hard and put away wet , and deferred maintenance.

Don't you find it odd that two of these cars within one year of ownership had a major failure already ? I don't find it odd ....because previous owners, shops may have noticed something funky already .

 

+1,000

 

have yet to see a broken diff.

I have seen plenty of good used diffs in boxes

 

Can you guys please stop these yes/no/yes/no/yes/no games? And help get farstar his TR?

It's a FACT that several TRs had broken diffs ...
It's a FACT that there are still plenty of TRs which didn't have any (diff) problems yet ...

It's a FACT that some people would advise you to replace your diff ...
It's a FACT that other people would advice to simply keep your current diff ...
They all are entitled to have their own OPINION, just respect that ...

For (future and current) owners of TRs: read about all the opinions and draw your own conclusions. Replace the diff, or just keep it the way it is. Whatever you will do, it's a USED and OLD car and things get broken. You never know the complete history, it's always a guess. Some repairs are cheap, some really expensive. That's the deal when you buy a TR. But in return you get A LOT OF FUN!

I bought one recently, spent a lot of money on it and was finally able to drive it recently. And whow, it really is a lot of fun! So, farstar, look for a nice TR, keep some money aside, do the fuse box, do the necessary maintenance and draw your own conclusion regarding the diff. And then have great fun with these great cars!

(p.s. everything above is just my OPINION, of course )
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I agree 100% with you. USE IT, maintain it, and ENJOY IT in good health Farstar. The death sentence for ANY car is just to own it an let it collect dust in the garage/living room/museum just so that the owner can say " I own a (insert car here)".

 

Guys, really all your help is appreciated. Edvar, your 512TR is wonderful, this colour fits the car perfectly.

I tend to believe now that the fuse box and the gold connections are needed from day 1, but the diff should be changed only once the major is performed, taking advantage of the engine out.

The car I am looking at had a major 1.5 years ago, so there is still some time.

Just to confirm my guess is correct: let us assume, worst case scenario, the diff breaks down. Would this event afect "only" the gearbox, or also the engine could suffer? I am asking this because I know a quite good professional here, specialist in gearboxes, and I believe he could repair any kind of gearbox for a reasonable price, in case it is needed. So, I could potentially take the risk of a gearbox breakdown. However, if the event affects the engine too, then this could skew the decision towards a preemptive diff change (before the major is due).

 

Wow all this has got my head spinning. I've been looking for a TR, but the costs are so much. I was looking at spending about 45k on one I found on craigslist. And now I have to worry about esploding diffs and melting fuse boxes?
All I was worried about was some new rugs and seat covers, maybe paint the heads black again.

 

In the end, why is it so much? For the electrics (fuse box and gold connections) say $3k. For the diff, something like $1k plus installation (which should be only a few hours' time, since I assume the engine is out already for a major).

So in total, $5k. I do not think this is "too much", if added to a reasonable price for a Testarossa. Apparently, after the $5k one may be reasonably convinced the car has its biggest flaws more or less solved (granted, the car is 20+ years old, so other things will appear).