BBC: Formula 1's Greatest Drivers of All Time (Top 20)

Paul, permit me to opine that the driver who SHOULD have won the 1979 WDC was neither Gilles nor Jody but Alan Jones whose results that year demonstrate so conclusively the importance of finishing races. Jones DNF'd in seven races out of fifteen, earned points in just six races (out of the points in the other two) yet still finished just seven points behind Gilles and eleven behind Jody for the championship. He won one more race than either Jody or Gilles.

Yes, Gilles was electric, even incandescent! but simply didn't accomplish nearly enough to be placed in the Pantheon amongst the 'gods'.

 

I think this BBC comment applies to Gilles as well:

It is the how Gilles drove that mattered.
Pete

 

Sigh...

PSk said Stewart raced "back when F1 was dangerous" as if to say it wasn't dangerous when MS started. It clearly was, that's all I was saying. Obviously more lives were lost in Jackie's day.

That said, what is your point? This thread is about the best Formula One driver not the best safety advocate.

Is it Senna or MS's fault they were born in different eras? You think if Senna or MS raced in the same era as Jackie Stewart they would puss out or something? Laughable. Bottom line: These lists are all based in opinion (and you're certainly entitled to yours) but I've NEVER seen Jackie Stewart ranked in the top 5 in any greatest-ever list other than perhaps the one in his own mind. The end.

 

My point had nothing to do with Stewart being the best safety advocate, but simply that when it was really dangerous you had to drive differently. MS, in particular, took huge and extremely dangerous risks (such as pushing a competitor right off the track) that would have killed himself or the other driver in Stewart's day. Would he have done that back then? ... I absolutely hope not.

So IMO the time and safety levels of racing does have to be taken into account because it affects race craft. MS minus that daredevil race craft would have a very different record. Plus nowadays you can over do it big time into a corner and pretty much know you are going to be able to walk again, and get into the car after it is fixed. Back in Stewarts day if you over did it big time, while the car might be fixable it is highly likely that you personally would suffer. That changes ones attitude and throttle position when attacking say Spa's famous La Rouge for example.

Just adds to how difficult it is to compare drivers from different eras.
Pete
ps: You should read a Stewart book on driving, might change your mind. I personally think he should be highly rated, and has a very intelligent physics understanding concept of driving.

 

True, and another reason why comparing drivers across eras is, in the end, pointless.
Fun nonetheless.

 

You know what's even more pointless? Comparing designers cross-era...as though science & technology would stand still in time lol.

 

And the latitude that the rules of the times allow.
Newey has excelled working the margins (an oversimplification I know) Chapman thinking way out of the box. As they say early Ferrari designers perfected the blacksmith's art.

 

you are correct. Try driving the Old Spa circuit - flat out in the rain thru the Masta kink... I dont recar MS, or Senna winning a race by 7 Minutes... in the rain and fog.... and on Nurburgring... Also MS and Senna were not racing in several series at the same time...

Stewart was in F-1, Cam Am, Sports cars till 69, saloons, Indy, etc... and winning or at the top of all those series.

Also - its Eau rouge and la Source ... are the turns in the current Spa circuit... but back in Stewarts days Spa was a majestic death trap... with average speeds around 140mph - 160 Mph. and notorious for rain at one end and dry at the other...

 

Ok - for the last time.....

My point is Stewart is my candidate for the best driver in Formula One... as you say, its not about the fastest, or most winning, or most Brazillian... its the best ever.... and For all the stuff that i have noted - Stewart is my nomination... and to me is the best.

3 world championships, he was the winningest driver from 73 to 87 - 14 years he was #1`....and then really his most lasting contribution has been safety and promotion to F-1... who else can say that? all the others are great drivers... but that is it. I think to be the greatest you have to give something back....

 

Its possible to figure out who had the most wins, the most wins per start etc. mathematically. If those are the only criteria its easy to determine the best but true greatness is largely a matter of the intangibles. Who was bravest. Who was most determined. Who gave the most to the sport. How one values those is a personal matter.

 

they are ALL brave, even today's cocooned boy wonders.

to see a corner coming up at 300+kph and knowing you can't lift until the very near proximity of the corner would scare the hell out of 99.99% of the "normal" driving population and must frustrate the bejezus out of most racing drivers to get it right.

Stewart would rate in any knowledgable person's top ten, if not top five

 

... 7 Min lead at the Nurburgring in 68! ... in the fog and rain... you dont do that by being average..

Sure, and Ickx finished 4º, do you know why? because he lost his visor in the early stages of the race!! I´m no expert but i think Ian can give his opion on this, and tell us wich is more amazing, to win by 7 Min under these conditions or to finish fourth whule driving flat out in the midle of the rain without a visor!!!!...beacuse if there was an expert driving at the ring and in the rain, thar man was Ickx.

 

AS Frank williams said after the 79 season, Gilles made more for f.1 sake that year than all the other teams and drivers involved...to me, this is giving something back...in a big way!!!

 

and that has something to do with being the greatest DRIVER ?

 

All I was saying is F1 was still mighty dangerous when MS started. You dismissed it like it was some sort of walk in the park.

As for the best FORMULA ONE DRIVER, people can go on and on about the intangibles, racing in other series, etc. To me it doesn't matter since we're talking about the best F1 driver I don't care if they were fast racing sedans or were the nicest guy ever outside of the cockpit. I care about what they achieved in F1.

Stewart did a lot but pales in comparison to the "top 5" greats, IMO. I'd put him in the top 10 about where the BBC guys did...

 

Not the greatest ever but great nonetheless. Still remember his pass around the outside of Jones at Tarzan at the Dutch GP in 79. Brilliant stuff.

 

The list thus far has gone the way I thought it would at least in terms of the top 10. AS and JMF are left. Who is number one and why?

 

If the question is who was the greatest Driving Talent in F-1 ... then i think its between:

1. Jim Clark
2. Ayrton Senna
3. JM Fangio

no question that each of the above had a raw and natural God given talent to go fast and to sustain it all weekend. From my knowledge I rate Jim Clark a shade better than Senna,- even with Fangio...

Fangio always had THE best equipment - he had a 6th sense for getting to the right team at the right time... so for me Jim Clark is #1... only drove for Lotus, cars were not always the best, very fragile, but he utterly dominated or did not finish.... when I speak of domination 2-3 seconds a lap in front of the field on first lap... consistenly fast all weekend ... etc... off track he was an utter indecisive introvert.... but was in command on track. Also he raced anything with wheels at the time... and won!


But saying all that - I still rate Jackie Stewat as THE BEST driver ever for all the combined sides of racing.

Senna was a natrual - no question. Monaco in 84 and then estoril in 84 in the Toleman... Estoril in 85 in with his first win was utter master class. Donnington in 93 - amazing.

however the blot on his record 89 & 90... pushing Mansell to the wall in Jerez??? Suzuka with Prost in 90??? that is not how a Champion should act... Monaco in 88, as well as numerous practice and qualifying incidents along the way. Senna was a Dangerous driver at times - I respect his natrual ability, but his death makes him un criticizable which is wrong.

Clark, Fangio, Prost, Stewart, Lauda ... these guys were all very fast but respected racing, and keeping each other safe... Senna was "out there" move or die!

 

Good post and other than Jackie being the best ever, I agree. Crazy thing is, most people forget about the fact that Stefan Bellof was catching both Prost AND Senna at Monaco in 84! He could have gone on to be a F1 great himself...

I think Senna/Clark are the fastest drivers ever (quali stats speak to this), but MS is the total package, IMO.

 

yes it does, as does the fact that he drove at a time with the best drivers grid in f.1 history.
Gilles drove against: Piquet; Prost; Pironi; Lauda; Andreti; Rosberg; Lafite; Jones; Reutman; Arnoux; Tambay; Jabouille; Hunt; Peterson; Alboreto; Patrese; Regazzoni ;Sheckter; Depailler, Mansell, De Angelis, etc.....you won´t find a better group of drivers in any other era of f.1, and you know what? They all said Gilles was the best of them all.....who am i to desagree?

 

Why'd you pick on me!? I'm no expert either, but FWIW I'd say simply finishing without a visor in the rain is staggering - Dunno how many have been caught on even a bicycle, let alone a motorbike in the rain visorless, but it *hurts*. Not to mention pretty much blinds you.

Which must concentrate the mind some, particularly round the 'Ring.........

As for winning by seven minutes - Back then it wasn't *that* unusual for the leader to put half a lap on the pack, particularly when wet. For sure, one of the very few true "rainmeisters". Jimmy was of course another......

Another quote from the ever-polarizing JYS about him; "He was so smooth, he was so clean, he drove with such finesse. He never bullied a racing car, he sort of caressed it into doing the things he wanted it to do."

While I'll always have fond memories of both Gilles and Ayrton, they were "bullies". Michaels records are peerless and he hence has my immense respect, but not the "love" I feel for Jimmy, Gilles & Ayrton.

Cheers,
Ian

 

That's a little debatable IMO. For sure, a very strong field, but there have been others over the years.

+1

I guess the respect of your peers is one of the most telling (and desirable) things that can be said of any athlete. That he was pretty much universally regarded as the best of the best is indeed telling - These guys raced against him - They weren't spouting from the safety of their keyboards.......

Cheers,
Ian

 

Denis jenkinson whom i belive is one of the all times "authorities" in motorsport, had his top five:

Ascari, Moss, Clark, Gilles and Senna.....and i guess he also must know a thing or to about the subject.