Technical Question on 348 cylinder head. Please advise

Hello

Thinking of buying a 348 which had this issue..

at 22000 km it had a Cylinder head joint changed. I received this information from the Ferrari Tech in Europe but because of the language differences i did not understand what he meant. The car is a European Import. The car now has 36000km. Imported at 36000. last major in europe , same garage at 36000km.

The repair on this was 22000$ .

1. Is this a motor job ? show i be concerned if done well? are the chances high that this same issue can happen again.

2. stay away .
If anyone is a Ferrari Tech please PM me

 

For $22K the negine would have been removed from the ar, both heads would have been removed and disassembled, new valve guids put in, poosible some valves replaced, the valve seats refaced, the heads cleaned, reinstalled. The motor would have been pressure tested, put back in the car, and driven to confirm the power and reliability of the motor ongoing.

This is genrally called something like a "top end rebuild".

When performed by a competent shop, this rebuild puts the motor in a state where one should expect a nice long life from the motor. So, if you are the first owner after such work, you should follow the manufactures break in for the first 500-1000 miles--and then the motor will be ready to run the snot out of it, like any good Ferrari motor!

 

that was done at 22000 km in 2005. in 2008 it had 36000 km. so it did 14000 km.

this top end rebuild just makes me ask myself, was it a defect or abuse..

Thank You!

 

I'm anxious to hear how you know what work was done and why from the vague information provided by errico.

 

For "cylinder head joint" I would surmise the head gaskets. Says nothing about any other work there. I have done a couple of valve jobs when I had wierd leakage results during a major service. If the dealer was an official dealer, back in the heyday, just head gaskets could well have been gouged out that much!

 

A major service with new head gaskets would have been a lot closer to $12-15K than $22K. This is why I suspect that the head was rebuit in some way.

 

Hello Guys

I called the dealer for explaination and it they confirmed that it was indeed the head gaskets only. The labour is 270 $ an hour in Europe in 2005.

Is changing head gaskets complicated on this car and is it something i should be worried about in my purchase.

Hopefully its a defect in material and not abuse. Thank you for all the responses, it was a head gasket change thats all.

 

WOW !!

On what planet is "Europe" located, now ?!

(assuming you mean US dollars) $270 / hr labor rate is extraordinarily high in 2005 dollars. Heck, it is high even in 2012 dollars ! What country was this ?

.....did the mechanic have a "JD" or an "MD" listed after his name ??

 

Switzerland.

that is what the ferrari mechanic said. tomorrow i get the work order .

head gaskets a major repair ?

 

You know it is really hard (and kind of silly) for anyone to speculate on what was done. You really should get a hold of a copy of the invoice and confirm what was actually done to know anything for sure ---- and to give you peace of mind.

Just taking the heads off to replace the head gaskets is a fairly big job by itself, but so many other things could have also been done (many of which you would just do because everything else is apart and you want to be thorough and preventative).

I would certainly assume that (at a minimum) the timing belts would have been changed during re-assembly (as they are off to get the heads off), and the belts themselves are rather inexpensive --- so only a penny-pinching fool would put the old ones back on.

If this were my car, I would want to know EXACTLY why the heads had to come off in the first place. As this is not a "normal" procedure for a 360 with such low mileage, so something "out of the ordinary" must have happened ----- and, it may have been serious ---- and, you would really want to ensure that everything that needed to be done got done and got done correctly.

And, if the labor rate really was billed at $270/hr........well you can hit a big bill pretty quickly, even with only replacing a few parts of moderate expense.

 

if they knew the work was done and cost, then they should have reciepts of the work done ....if they are serious to sell to you the car, then they should (or you should insist) to see those, which will tell exactly what was (or wasn't) done on the car

 

Don't forget the statutory minimum employment leave of at least 20 work days per year, plus 12–16 public holidays.

When their (Euro) problems hit US shores - keep that in mind as we bail 'em out.

Apologies for the digression.

Rgds,
Vincenzo

 

Good job they're not in the eurozone then........

 

thank you guys, waiting for the copy via email. the moment i get it i would need a german translator

 

*Viola* http://translate.google.com/?hl=en&tab=wT

 

I don't speak German, but I am sure several here do. So, feel free to please post it up if you want, translated or untranslated, as I am sure many here would be very curious to see it. Also, then some of the pros like Tim (2NA) might be willing to offer their assessment and insights into the work that was done?

Considering that you can buy a good used 348 engine complete for about $10-12K here in the States, I would love to know what one gets when they spend twice that on a repair

 

here is finally what happened. translated from german step by step. please let me know how bad this is !

motor has no compression both cylinder heads
valves - guide valves
TIMING BELT BROKE !
55 hours of labor total 10000$

REPAIR

emissions test
outlet valve 1300 $ 8 valves 162.57 each
sealing end cap

valve guides inlet valve guides 895$
cylinder head gasket 495 $
chain adjuster
timing belt
FAN BELT
FAN BELT ALTERNATOR
gear 886 $ ???

the rest is all seals.

Does it get any worse than this ?

this happened at 21000km, car now has 36000km. What are your opinions on this car ?

 

I'll defer to the experts here who do these sorts of things (on Ferraris) for a living.

 

in take guides-what about exhaust?
probabably all new valves and seals
head gaskets were cheap...IMO...
This repair is what happens when the outer limits of belt shelf life is pushed to squeeze the last penny out of this interval!
When it snaps-and snap they clearly do-means big money...fixed these before, it is an expensive and time intensive as well as dollar intensive...that aside, its not a big deal as far as I am concerned...just make sure you change belt every 3-4 years or 30K miles...it is a single belt so famage will be more severe-thus more expensive....this can be seen in the biill...no?

 

what i see from the invoice is that the major componets are valves and guides, if its not a major deal i will consider this car . Pistons are not indicated as impacted.


How can i verify if all is ok, compression tests ?

 

Seems as though it has done enough miles that the work has been tested, don't see why you wouldn't buy it. PB

 

There are three test you can do to verify the work is okay. They are:

1) Cooling system pressure test.
This will make sure that the head gasket does not have any leaks, especially NGO the combustion chamber.

2) Compression test.
This will check the health of the bottom end. In particular how well the piston rings are keeping compression, and in some part how well the heads are sealing.

3) Leak down test.
This test will really pin point any weakness in the engine. If your valves aren't sealing well it will show what valves are leaking, same deal with the piston rings.

 

Thank you guys. This will be done this week. I hope it goes good.

 

Some times I just hate autocorrect.

Sorry that SHOULD have read:

"This will make sure that the head gasket does not have any leaks, especially GOING INTO the combustion chamber."

How in the hell the autocorrect got NGO out of that is beyond me??????

 

I don't believe that report. People on ferrarichat have told me that timing belts never break, and it's a waste of money having them renewed.....