The Alonso needs to go thread

Why?

When the issue of Massa not returning to Ferrari came up, Hamilton, Kimi, etc, could have gone to Ferrari, but they did not. Not exactly a long line of top drivers wanting to go Ferrari? Even for one year.

Like I said, why? What facts, facts, do you have that I am wrong?

 

On the flip side do you have any proof that these drivers were offered rides by Ferrari, and that they turned them down?

 

+1

 

Not the point I was making. The point I was making, did these drivers of high calibre go to Ferrari asking for a ride because it was Ferrari?

My point, probably not. If Hamilton had a choice, Ferrari, second in the WCC, or MB, a bit down the list, which would he have taken?

Would Vettel leave Red Bull just for the historical but no longer existent aura of Ferrari?

But let's assume Alonso would only accept a #2 as his teammate. Do you think Webber, Rosberg, Button, etc, went to Ferrari and asked for the ride? NOT!

This is the 2010s, those kind of semi romantic actions no longer happen as Ferrari has shot their own image in the foot. They now have legitmate competition, and they find that a hard pill to swallow. As do their fans.

If Enzo were alive today, I would guess that much fewer would hold him esteem knowing that in reality he was an a**h**e.

Think about that. Honestly. I did not realize he was such a bast**d until I read more about his personality. I love the Ferrari road cars, but, the race team are no longer the most admirable team on the grid.

If Santander wanted Alonso at, say, Sauber, he would be at Sauber because Santander pays Alonso's salary. Sorry, this image BS has long gone. Hamilton went to MB. and Vettel is staying at Red Bull

 

Only after a certain point in the season did Massa take on the role as test mule. He was given a whole new chassis replacement and I believe 3-5 GP opportunities to prove his worth again, since it was alleged or at least suspected he had a defective chassis. Well, the team gave him a clean slate and still no result, so we can't really blame the Scuderia for prioritizing Alo over him to maximize their results.

At the beginning they both had equal opportunity and an equally inferior car...and well Alonso delivered results, Massa didn't and that's why it's very fair to say Alo is a far more impressive driver than Massa. Alonso is definitely not over-rated no matter how you want to slice it; Massa's lack of competitiveness only brought his brilliance into greater focus but that does not equate to thinking too highly of him.

 

I can explain it to you...what would Massa make at any other team. What did Kimi earn at Ferrari and what does he earn now at Lotus. If you think drivers say "who cares about making double or triple the money" you are mistaken. The car is competitive, the pay is huge, and as long as they have that and history on their side, they will sign top drivers.

 

But where is it widely believed to be a slower car? On f-chat?

At the end of the day, our biases will always color our views. The only real comparison is head to head in equal cars, which happened, and we know how it turned out - Hamilton won

 

That simply not the way it works I'm afraid. "High calibre" drivers have teams knocking on their doors, not vice versa.

"No longer existent" aura?! You're joking right? They remain far and away the most charismatic and aura ridden team on the grid. By a long way. If the marketing geeks are to be believed, they're second to only Coca Cola in worldwide brand awareness. They are, and always will be, the gold standard.

No one else is even close. Even the Pygmy recognizes it with the special "Ferrari payment" every year.

You may not like the man (RIP) - very few guys get to his position without pissing people off, and yes, he could be a bastard. Show me a leader of a WW enterprise and I'll invariably show you what some consider a bastard.

Cheers,
Ian

 

Fact check the 2007 season.

You might also review the 2008 season, and check who was leading that Singapore GP before FA's team pulled that "strategic crash".

And don't bother calling me a troll. Again.

 

Not just f chat. Widely assumed in the press.

 

I think Lewis and Alonso are in a league of their own above the pack. After that comes Vettel...

I'd love to see what Vettel can do in a lesser car just to see if I'm right.

Here's a silly yet great idea:

Have a real driver championship by everyone driving the same car: race 1 everybody drives a Ferrari, race 2 everyone drives a Red Bull, race 3 everyone drives a McLaren and so on...

 

What the hell are you talking about?

It's amusing that you post in here trying to act like a big dog yet had no response when I offered you a bet for next year about Alonso vs. Massa.

 

But as was said earlier in the thread, the Ferrari was by far the more reliable car.

Alonso was also *really* lucky this season (especially the last two races), and Ferrari were more committed to sacrifice Massa to boost Alonso than Red Bull was to do the same with Webber (let alone McLaren were with Button). So I don't think just looking at the final standings can be used as a straight reflection on Alonso's driving skill.

There's also the fact that Massa did pretty well the last few races, better than Alonso (before the artificial results adjusting by Ferrari).... did Massa suddenly develop the skill to make a pig of a car fast? Or was the car not really that bad all along, but Massa just couldn't wrap his head around it?

 

No doubt that Ferrari had the most reliable car and that luck, as always, plays a big part.

And as always its impossible to draw absolute conclusions. But that's what makes for good sports talk.

 

Straight from the horse's mouth:

Felipe Massa has admitted that the long-running uncertainty over his Ferrari future played a part in his poor early-2012 form.

Although the Brazilian had previously insisted that he had been able to shut out the pressure caused by Ferrari's doubts over his performances, he now accepts it affected his focus.

"In the first half of the year, I was worried about renewing my contract," Massa said at Ferrari's World Finals event at Valencia on Sunday.

"I did not think that Ferrari would really wait right to the end of the summer before deciding on the driver line-up for next year.

"It's true that ever since I've been at Maranello, there have always been rumours about me. Already in my first year there was a list of drivers who were supposed to take my place and it was the same this year, with a lot of names and plenty of speculation.

"At the start, I paid too much attention to these things, but then, in August, I told myself I should only think about racing and having fun and so I began to really drive, to have the right feeling with the car and to drive as quickly as I know how."

Ferrari eventually decided to renew Massa's contract in October.

He enjoyed a stronger end to the year, scoring two podium finishes and outqualifying title-chasing team-mate Fernando Alonso at the last two grands prix.

"Now I feel very strong and the results were there to see in the last nine races, so I am optimistic for the future - mine and Ferrari's," Massa added.

[Source: Autosport.com]

 

Shouldn't this really be in one of the myriad Phil sucks/doesn't suck threads?

I'd really like him (or someone there) to "confirm" if he really was being used as a test mule most of the year. Results suggest that be the case, but I think it may be a story "we" started here, and it kinda went from a theory to a fact.......

I'd love to see some outside confirmation - Anyone got any links?

Cheers,
Ian

 

Personally, I never felt the test mule story. The purpose of testing is to improve performance. If he was testing then surely he would have had races where performance was better than baseline as well as occasional worse. That wasn't the case....

 

Because the comment itself was so out of sync with the series that it didn't warrant a reply. As evidenced by not knowing what 2007 or 2008 were about, or how history doesn't support the claim that Ferrari *always* designates a "#1 driver".

It's obvious that Alonso demands to be the primary driver. But this was not the case with Ferrari previously. Historically, the "#1 driver" is whichever one is leading in the points, at the time. Schumi was the "#1" driver in 2000-2001, only because he came out of the gate stronger than Rubens.

In 2002, with limited in-season testing, Ferrari designated Schumi as #1, in that infamous Austrian result. And RB left, because he didn't want to be the "test driver".

In both 2007 and 2008, Kimi and Massa competed evenly -- until Monza. Whichever driver was leading going into Monza became the #1 driver for the season "end game". This was pretty common at Ferrari, in the past. The leading driver got his choice of pit strategy, etc. We even saw that in cases where the Ferrari drivers made some odd moves on each other.

Alonso's first year, Ferrari did NOT designate Alonso the primary driver, and Alonso spent half the season more focussed on fighting with Massa than with the other teams. Remember the GP where Alonso took them both out of the points? You should certainly remember Alonso punting Massa off the pit entry in China.
And Massa was leading in the points going into that China GP. (Look it up.) It was very telling that Alonso didn't get a time-out from the team for that move.
But I suppose it's "just coincidence" that Santander and Alonso came to Ferrari at the same time. And that they both have the same home country.

Since then, the direction has been to keep Massa away from Alonso. Remember the transmission, this year, telling Massa he was "too close" to Alonso?

So there's virtually no chance that Ferrari is going to let Massa and Alonso compete as equals next year, so any bet on the relative points is meaningless.
Especially if they use Massa as a test driver.

Alonso has improved a lot since his early days. Ironically, his two WDCs came when he was young and inexperienced --- and had a huge tire advantage with those dangerously thin Michelins. But I suppose that doesn't ring any bells either.

Alonso is a better driver than he was. He has not reached deification.
Notice that Alonso has now lost more GPs in the last race with Ferrari than he won with Renault (and Michelin tires).

And Massa may not be the best driver ever, but he's a lot better than he's given credit for among the "big dogs" who have ranted away until most of us have given up on the F1 section.

So I'll just leave the little "me and my echo" section to those who only want to hear their own opinions parroted back at them.

Besides: the blow-hard bet thing has been done. And for much larger stakes.
And then the guy who was certain that Massa wouldn't win four races in 08 hasn't been back since. (And I don't think he ever paid up.)

A "big dog" will need something more than hurling insults at those who tell them what they don't want to hear to convince anyone.
Where are the examples from the past? The races that support that position?

I don't find self-designated "big dogs" funny. I find them sad.

But since those who claim to know everything have lost the ability to learn, this has likely been a wasted post.

 

Shocking! Pressure and uncertainty affecting human performance. Im writing home about this

 

Remember '07, when Kimi took the blame for a problem everyone on pit lane said was a mechanical problem?

Ferrari has never been exactly forthcoming with team internal information.

One thing that makes Felipe valuable to Ferrari is that he doesn't throw them under the bus.

 

So you honestly don't think that at the start of the 2000 and 2001 MS wasn't Ferrari's #1, 2007 Raikkonen wasn't Ferrari's #1 and in 2010 Alonso wasn't Ferrari's #1?

This is now quoted so you can't edit it (might be post of the year), and let me just say....

LMFAO

Actually, both Ferraris scored points in that race, Alonso in 4th and Massa in 9th.

Okay. This will be the last time I say this, so try to make note of it. Santander does not dictate to Ferrari who is #1, who will drive for them, and they AREN'T EVEN THE PRIMARY SPONSOR OF THE CAR.

He beat Raikkonen when Kimi was at his peak in a faster car. The next year he went toe to toe with Schumacher and won. Enough said. Really...there is no reason for me to try and tell you how good Alonso is, his peers have already done that for me.

Typical.

Thanks for the Monday morning laughs though, good stuff

 

To say Alonso beat Kimi in 2005 it´s pushing it...kimi blew him away every time thr mac didn´t desintegrate himself!! For some reason he received the award of best driver of the year. Alonso won because the renault was very reliable and the mac was loosing pieces all over the track...it´s as simple as that. "005 Kimi was streets ahead Alonso and made 0 mistakes.

 

Dunno about that. What about Australia, Malaysia, Bahrain, and China?

Alonso had great speed and consistency in '05. Kimi had the faster car, but it was unreliable. Even the races Kimi won, Alonso was right there behind, so Kimi was unable to take many points off of him. Both guys had great seasons and Alonso won out in the end. He was WDC, Kimi wasn't.