Official 308 GT4 Market Thread

It's very cheap to run my car in Canada. The plate sticker is $18 a year and my insurance is under $300 a year for Antique and Classic cars. No emission test required because of age.

 

Pretty much the same here (The Netherlands)

Road taxes zero (when compared to the $1500 for my daily driver that's cheap), and insurance $70 3rd party plus $400 all-risk. This compared to $700 for third party only again on my daily driver (2000 BMW 330ci convertible)

This classic car thing makes sense..

 

Nice Hans!

The question now is, what will it cost in 5 years to run a 360? I suspect a lot more than a few hundred dollars!

 

In France it is lower too, but they don't need a collector title to decide that your car is a classic car. My insurance is actually very cheap.
By the way, we also have the title at a 50% discount when the car is more than 25 years old, be it a regular or collector title
And no pollution tax...

 

I'll chime in here as the gt4 is on my list as an add on to my stable (because its so cheap)m. Costs relating to ownership in the past two years, gas $20 every other weekend, insurance about $1000 a year, registration about $600 a year, misc incidentals approx $100 a year and not including the belt service every 5 at $1300-2700. Not as cheap as my 79' 928 ($20 year regist)... But OTOH.. My 928 is only worth $2500-3000.

I don't think the gt4 will ever be worth more than the 360 IMHO. It's just not as "beautiful"... which for a ferrari is the first or second buying criteria. The parts argument that keeps getting thrown out there is BS. You guys sound like a bunch of old men that own typewriters lamenting that computers are so dang hard to repair... Check the power supply, RAM, When you understand HOW it works, fixing the 360 is no worse than a 30 year old car. In fact, my 928 taught me how to repair cars with its German complexity. Electronic components in he 360 share so much commonality with other Marques.. Repair in the future won't be an issue, or a workaround will be possible.

The 360 thread has these silly pricing discussions all the time.. The other issue is safety, a crash in a 70's era FCar or a modern FCar with airbags.. I'll take the modern FCar thanks.
As said before desirability affects demand that affects price, and while the gt4 has a unique style tht is cool IMHO... I don't see it eclipsing the 360 " modern 246 Dino"..

 

So I would pay 50% of the fiscal horse power on anything over 25 years old?
We have a house in southern France so this is very interesting. Will definitely change my motorcycle to FR registration to get rid of the tech inspection in Germany.

 

Here in Europe, a search on one of the car advert sites (www.mobile.de) gets you 312 F360's for (in Euros, 1 Euro = $1.32)

41K
42K
44K (2x)
45K (4x)
47K (9x)
Going up till as high as 150K


And 16 GT4's for
90K
65K
50K
42K
40K
and lower down until you get to 19K for a crappy looking 208

The 360 is on average still more expensive, but the higher end GT4's have already more than doubled the asking price of the lower end 360's, with a fair overlap. With the trend of GT4 being on the rise and 360 still on the fall, the topic of this thread - at least here in Europe - seems very realistic.

My $.02...

 

My prediction is that the 360 will dip below the 308/328 and will then eclipse it again.
That's discounting the prices "in Europe". "In Europe" as opposed to European model prices, because that's what's causing the prices to be double or more the US prices.

What's interesting is what will happen to the 70's cars when we're no longer here,
and the eco-nut legislation will reduce them to furniture outside of race tracks and special events.

 

Yes, as you pay only 50% of the full price for registering to your name any car that is over 10 years old.

BUT: the cost for the "fiscal horse" is different from a region to another, and varies between 27 euros per horse in Corsica (lowest cost), and 46,15 in Ile de France (highest cost).

So for registering, for instance, a 22 fiscal horse power Ferrari 328 in Corsica you would pay 50% of (22 X 27) whereas in Paris you would pay 50% of (22 X 46,15)

For the time being, those cars escape taxation on pollution (but second hand cars registered for the first time in France after Jan 1st, 2004 do not) but that is only for the time being...

Rgds,

 

It depends on so many factors that I do not like to dwelve into prediction; but question is, for Europe: what would the demand be in, say, 20 years from now on? Will those cars be still fashionable? Will they not be outlawed? Etc...

But I think that as for today, Hans has a valid point: the sheer numbers of 360 on the market simply is about 30 times the GT4 numbers.

It works also for the 308 or 328, which, as two seaters, were in their days exactly what the 360 was in 2000 to 2005: you will find between 8 and 9 328s for sale at a given time here in France, against about 150 360...after all, more than 17.000 360 were manufactured.

Perhaps you are right when saying that the 360 prices will dip below the 308/328 prices, and then overcome these again...but you would have to answer the question: WHEN will that begin?
As for me, I don't care too much about future value, I drive my cars as often as I manage, which, unfortunately, is not very often.

Rgds

 

The 65k looks worse than the 39k one, which has itself been sitting for some time. And Movisti has pretty high prices generally.
Check the other car prices of the dealer with the 65k offering. They are all at least double what they would ordinarily be in Europe.

If in Europe a 2CV is 20K, a Lada 10k, an Isetta and Messerschmitt 50k,
we should all pray that Bernanke keeps the Print Baby Print scheme going forever.
Maybe soon Europe can enjoy $20/gallon gas also and Draghi can take a victory lap around the EU.

I think if the central banks stop printing we'll have a crash in the classic car market, excepting the highest echelons.

 

Is the pollution tax a one time thing or a yearly tax like in Germany?

 

But it's not supposed to be your daily driver
That's why it's cheap.

 

I certainly would not want to be seen as derailing this thread, and I doubt that this will be of any interest to many of us, but nevertheless, everything is here:

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/F19911.xhtml#N1021D

Basically, for any NEW car bought and registered after Jan 1, 2008, you will have to pay a fixed amount for a heavy polluting car ("ecotaxe") once and for all when you buy it (it could go up to 3600 euros), and then a yearly tax of 160 euros.

For SECOND HAND cars that are/were registered for the first time in France after Jan 1, 2004, it is a fixed amount once and for all (for the time being) at registration, depending on the administrative method of inspection (there are two...)

I shall not dwelve into details (see above link) but for the time being the most common one is based on grams of C0² emission per km above a threshold, which, for the time being, is 200g/km: you would have to pay 2 € for any gram above the 200 grs threshold and below 250 grs; above 250 it is 4 € per additionnal gram of CO² emitted...this for the time being...

Let's say you decide to buy a 1988 328 in Italy (market prices are lower) and register it for the first time in France now, the tax would be:
2 euros per grams between 200 and 250 = 50 X 2 = 100;
then 4 € per gram above 250, the 328 emitting 320 grs (if my memory etc...) 70 X 4 = 280

That would make 380 € of tax for pollution (for the time being...)

Rgds

 

Thanks. Hope others find it interesting also, as part of the allure of classic cars and the prices they command is also contingent on their relatively approachable and affordable maintenance/upkeep costs.

Sometimes registration and technical inspectional policies can decide whether one purchases a car or not.
They can influence the cost of the car and maintenance as much or more than the car itself.

Much as in the US, some states are more classic car friendly than others, so in the EU,
some countries are more classic car friendly than others.

I think it would be of public benefit to catalogue the registration, technical inspection, insurance policies and costs in as many countries and US states as possible. Which Fchat section would be the most appropriate?

 

To which you would have to add, for France, the Law passed in July 2010 which authorises any mayor of a town of importance to forbid the access of its town to vehicles that are considered as "heavy polluters". A group of seven major cities in France, among which Paris, are studying the laws that would outlaw such cars inside their cities' boundaries.
For the time being, the decision contempled would be to forbid these cities to any car registered before jan 1st, 1997 (as it is already the case in Germany: Heidelberg, for instance...).
For the time being, no decison has been taken; not yet...

Rgds,

 

I think these market discussions focus too much on build numbers and not demand. The gt4 has low build numbers because it was not a popular car... or ferrari would have made 20,000. And I say that not to be mean.. Just that is what happened. Put yourself in the mind of a buyer versus an owner, what does the newbie buyer want? Who is that newbie buyer in age and demographics? What performance do they want for the $$$.. How does the styling compare with the newest models? I know when I bought my 360 versus a 348, the airbags, performance and modern styling vs 458 are what really sold me over. FYI in the US on cars.com there are 72 Modena coupes that range in price from $124k to $61k. I didn't see any gt4s. On eBay there are 50 360s from $49k to $120k, and no gt4s. I can't recall a gt4 priced above $30k. They are two very different buyers. As EU and US are very different places to own a car..

 

My cars are in Heidelberg so I know, but comically, in Germany all cars on H plates (older than 30) and therefore the heaviest polluters (in theory) are given a green badge and can go anywhere. In Germany there are some other illogical things, like the age of the vehicle being counted from the date of first registration. So if you have a car from 1908 that wasn't registered until 2000 you're out of luck.

Coming from the US, all of these Euro "thought out" policies look like the product of an insane
person who doesn't know what else to do to micro manage every aspect of its citizens' life.

It's absurd, counter productive and a guaranteed failure.

If it wasn't for the insurance issue I would export all my cars to the US and reimport them into Europe. It's just not worth playing the crazy puzzle that Euro governments force upon their citizens. It's such a waste of human energy and the hordes of clerks required to enforce them are a worse polluter than a carb car.

Even considering with some friends the possibility of setting up a legal body that would be able to issue car registrations and so on, somewhat like a principality. If nothing else, at least there are still places where you won't see a cop for the next 50 years, or if you do, you'll be on a first name basis, but beyond that it's looking grim, especially as enforcement becomes automated.

 

On CL Orange County #8754
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I poked around at that one...most likely 126k mileage, a bit worn...

 

Has considered selling...personal car of renowned tech...Rocco 416-686-8700
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It'll never happen...he has too much fun with it. Maybe for $100K he'd let it go...but I wouldn't count on it.

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lMaSZP0g-o[/ame]

 

What do people think of this car? I'd love an opinion...(or two!)

 

I think your Renault Alpine 110 is very cool.