CIS (w/o Lamba) problems... | FerrariChat

CIS (w/o Lamba) problems...

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by jes-13, Oct 21, 2012.

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  1. jes-13

    jes-13 Karting

    Jun 9, 2006
    56
    California
    Full Name:
    John
    I've had ongoing fuel problems with our '82 400i. The left bank has drown several times... :( The worst case involved fuel spraying 30' out the tailpipe! :eek: Anyway... after having the left bank & injectors tested w/o finding any problem, mixture (read upstream from CATs) was measured @ 1.09% L & 1.77% R. After sitting for 2-3 weeks, it again flooded the left bank. I think it's the cold start injector and have plugged the fuel line to it. No further floods have been seen. Further investigation of unequal exhaust pressure discovered an empty CAT on the left bank, not surprising considering the amount of raw fuel that it had seen... Turns out the SS substrate let go and unrolled itself as it traveled down the pipe. I have replaced both left CATs, cleaned out the pipe and the engine is still not happy. I thought I should start at baseline settings per shop manual, then idle speed & synchronization...
    Symptoms are:
    • can't get a stable fuel mixture on left.
    • misfire on left
    • at medium coolant temp, engine is very difficult to start, pops in manifold
    • and I think most important, I can't set "Mixture control unit alignment" per page D34 of the shop manual... even when the screw is bottomed CCW, I still get fuel flow.
    At this point I am assuming a fuel distributor problem, needing cleaning or replacement. I don't want to disassemble & clean it, so it means towing to my inconveniently located old Ferrari specialist, 70 miles away. or maybe I should just "shotgun" the FD with a rebuilt one...
     
  2. mwr4440

    mwr4440 Five Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2007
    58,013
    Bavaria, The 'Other' Germany
    Full Name:
    Mark W.R.
    IF you are going to send anything CIS related for rebuild, send it to Larry Fletcher (CISTECH) on the www.


    NO ONE out there is Better IMO.

    And many here would agree.
     
  3. 335s

    335s Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2007
    870
    SF Bay Area
    Full Name:
    T. Monma
    I was head of reaearch at a Federally Approved EPA modify and Test Facility in the early to mid 1980s..thus have more experience screwing around with with cold and hot mixture and running conditions than does 99.9% of thge popilation...reading this...

    Simply put, 400i was the easiest Ferrari to make pass, and "burn" as clean in terms of grams per mile, than the 5.0 liter MB sedans and coupes!

    It merely takes some time, fastidioius attention to detail, and in my case, the ability to modify the patent for the substrate wash coats better known as: "the Catalyst" wash coat

    As a Ca. poster, this is a car uner ARB auspices, thus, all things "must" function as at point of laboratory modify and test procedure of FTP-75 CVS bagged dyno test. The "LA-55" portion of the est is all that really matters, the "shed" is extraneous topic as you'ver deescribed your problem...
    firstly-get a PAIR of CIS fuel guages and verify correct and MATCHED function left to right of the cold control pressure, and time decay with metallic strips function to hot control prerssure-this matched figure and an equivalent decay time rate is important-but NOT critical...absolut cold pcontrol pressure is also NOT at all critical for these purposres.
    <easure with a tendem pair of digital volt meters-prefer ones with flight recorders, and plot the decay os well as base function of the warm up sensor-also, cap AND PLUG the warm up cold start injector.
    verify the control and operational function of the aux air valve.

    IS THER AN AUX{"grey market"} "frequency valve still installed on theindividual fuel distibutors-or perhaps a crudely installed dual head attempt at "equalized" presssure ncontol by using a SINGLE "frequency valve" shared by BOTH fuel distributors"-this will lokk like an electric fuel injector which has been plumbed into both the warm upp regulator and the fuel distributor upper or lower comtrol pressure aux port( a USA car will have it directly plumbed between upper and lower chambers on the side of the fuel distributor-thois is the valve which is "buzzing" during operation....in grey karket, frequently it does not buzz until closed loop...it all depends on ther design of the board controlled by the integrator circuit.)

    Lastly, you will need to ap;ply BOTH fuel guages to the fuel distributors and observe sytem pressures-that they are exactly equal-at bot ends of opoeration(there are BOSCH kits to shim this function-hot more importante than cold!!!
    watch that therre is no sudden pressure loss at cold valve and at Rest pressure...
    since nozzles are new, the diagnosis is not too complicated here...PS: 1.2-1.5 % pre cat is as much as you need for fuel...less than 1.2 and it will be doggy, more and all you are doing is washing oil of liner walls...
    ciao...
     
  4. jes-13

    jes-13 Karting

    Jun 9, 2006
    56
    California
    Full Name:
    John
    There are a number of referrals/praises to Larry in the forum, but I can't find any contact info, in the forum or web search... :confused: is he still around and a good choice?
     
  5. Crowndog

    Crowndog F1 Veteran

    Jul 16, 2011
    7,042
    Fairfield,Pa
    Full Name:
    Robert
    try: http://www.cisflowtech.com/

    For reference consider Larry the only choice. IMHO
     
  6. jes-13

    jes-13 Karting

    Jun 9, 2006
    56
    California
    Full Name:
    John
    I talked to Larry on the phone, seems like a nice guy that knows his stuff. The shop that's working on the car shipped both WURs & FDs to him. The left FD was confirmed to have major issues, stuck plunger, before being shipped off. We're looking forward to getting the car back with all 12 cylinders working evenly and no more 30' fuel sprays out the tailpipe... ;)
     
  7. rustybits

    rustybits F1 Rookie
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Jan 28, 2007
    2,509
    Somewhere, anywhere
    Full Name:
    Eddie B
    Strange...never heard of cold fuel pressure being regarded as irrelevant....
     
  8. jm3

    jm3 F1 Rookie

    Oct 3, 2002
    4,364
    United States
    Full Name:
    JM3

    I have worked with CIS enough, to never want to do it again, so I don't want to drive away someone who obviously is trying to contribute.

    This is how I read it:


     
  9. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 13, 2009
    16,577
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Curt
    Oh god.. Bringing me back to the 928... I've found the hot control pressure to be key in he warmup regulator.. If the stupid screen isn't plugged... ;) try some fuel system leaner first.. The industrial kind, the fuel distributor is pretty hardy.. Most issues I've encountered we're warmup regulator and injector related..
     

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