P3 P3/4 412P Gearboxes | FerrariChat
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P3 P3/4 412P Gearboxes

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Napolis, Dec 29, 2012.

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  1. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    #1 Napolis, Dec 29, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    As part of the P Car gearboxes and spares we acquired we also got all the gearbox race set up sheets with ratio's used at The Targa Florio, Le Mans and other races. This has enabled us to shorten the ratio's in 0846 for the road as with her mechanical FI she really has to rev to produce torque. The ratios in 0854 which are as last raced at Brands Hatch work well with her carburetored engine.
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  2. theowinstone

    theowinstone Karting

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    #2 theowinstone, Dec 29, 2012
    What carbs are those?
     
  3. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #3 Napolis, Dec 29, 2012
    412P Webers
     
  4. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

    Oct 8, 2007
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    #4 solofast, Dec 29, 2012
    Jim,

    The first gearbox shown is different than the ones mounted on the engines, which gearbox is the silver one?
     
  5. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    #5 miurasv, Dec 29, 2012
    412P Webers? Is that what Weber designated those beauties as? What size chokes?
     
  6. texasmr2

    texasmr2 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #6 texasmr2, Dec 29, 2012
    Wow!! I would love to hear more details about this acqusition "in general" without all the gory details so to speak lol. Great pics Mr.G thanks for sharing.
     
  7. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    #7 Napolis, Dec 29, 2012
    The silver one is P3 Tipo 593. It raced at Le Mans in 1966 in 0846 where it dnf'd due to gear box failure. You can see the Le Mans scrutinizing stamps and the repaired damage to the case. In December of 66 it was used as a mule when 0846 was converted to a P 3/4. It's P3 inboard brakes were replaced with outboard P4 style brakes and uprights (603). Before 0846 raced at Daytona where it finished 1 OA it's P3/muled gearbox was replaced by a P4 Tipo gearbox (603) which basically had a bigger case which held more oil and somewhat beefier innards although many parts are interchangeable. 0854 was built originally as a 412P (P3 chassis/P4 gearbox and suspension/P3 wheelbase/ P4 outboard brakes but with a P3 motor with Webers (not Lucas mechanical FI which was both P3/P4).
    0846's P3 Lucas Mechanical FI was re used on 0846's new 1967 P4 motor when Ferrari turned her from a P3 to a P 3/4)

    Off the top of my head I'm not sure of the 412 Weber model # but will look.
     
  8. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #8 Napolis, Dec 29, 2012
    Basically Ferrari sold off surplus parts and also gave parts to workers in lieu of overtime. These workers passed away and left them to their sons who now work on some of our cars in Modena and felt I was the one wind up with them.

    Our P 4/5 C engineers crunched the data sheets and made a program for us where we can figure out gear ratio's at shift points. In the day they went up to 8500rpm. We try to keep it below 7500rpm as this stuff is very, very rare.
     
  9. texasmr2

    texasmr2 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #9 texasmr2, Dec 29, 2012
    That was very kind and generous of them and I am certain it means alot to you.
     
  10. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    #10 Napolis, Dec 29, 2012
    Karma works both ways for sure...
     
  11. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    #11 miurasv, Dec 30, 2012
  12. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    #12 Napolis, Dec 30, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
  13. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    #13 miurasv, Dec 30, 2012
    Stating the obvious but wrong pictures too with those of the Can Am conversion being displayed.
     
  14. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #14 Napolis, Dec 30, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Ferrari has played with the truth many times. Here's a photo of 0856 in the factory painted as a clone of 0846 just before they sold her as "The Daytona Winner" which she wasn't. I have an original photo that David Clarke took when he got the car with it's "history" written on the back including the drivers who drove it at Daytona in 67.
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  15. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    #15 miurasv, Dec 30, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
    Which car do Ferrari say was the one that came second, car number 6 driven by Chris Amon and Jackie Stewart, at the '67 BOAC 500, #0858 or #0860?
     
  16. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    #16 miurasv, Dec 30, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
  17. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #17 Napolis, Dec 30, 2012
    There was a lot of revisionist history when they tried to austion off 350 Can Am 0858 at the last RM factory sale.

    I do know that 0858's Spyder tail is the one that blew off and was damaged as that spyder tail with clear evidence of post Brands hatch repairs was incorrectly fitted to 0854 when I bought it and is now fitted to 0846. 0854 now has her original correct coupe body.
     
  18. Streetrod

    Streetrod Karting

    Apr 16, 2011
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    #18 Streetrod, Dec 30, 2012
    Great pics, but I have to say looking into that empty engine bay I do wonder how those few skinny tubes can support the engine let alone the car. :D Has anyone ever measured the torsional stiffness of one of these cars? Can you feel any flex in the chassis when you are driving it?
     
  19. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #19 Napolis, Dec 30, 2012
    It feels pretty good even on a track but of course nothing like a modern race car.
     
  20. NürScud

    NürScud F1 Veteran

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    #20 NürScud, Dec 30, 2012
    Very beautiful photos and Great collection of course.! Thanks for sharing.
     
  21. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    #21 miurasv, Dec 30, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    So did Ferrari claim at the auction that it was 0858 that came 2nd? Most of the information out there claims it to be 0860, as I know you are aware. Picture by Geoffrey Goddard.
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  22. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

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    #22 solofast, Dec 30, 2012
    You're forgetting that the engine and gearbox are actually bolted solid to the frame and act to stiffen the rear sections considerably. While not much of the rear frame is triangulated, once the engine and gearbox are bolted in the back end is going to be a lot stiffer than it looks empty.

    While these cars weren't as stiff as the Fords or the Chaparral, they weren't considered bad handling cars by all accounts. As I recall they held their own on the infield at Daytona. The Fords were just a lot faster down the straights, and that's what gave them their advantage.
     
  23. Streetrod

    Streetrod Karting

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    #23 Streetrod, Dec 31, 2012
    Napolis would I be right in assuming that these cars would have been set up pretty soft in the suspension to compensate for the lack of stiffness in the chassis?
     
  24. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    #24 Napolis, Dec 31, 2012
    In the day these were raced on regular roads a lot more than today (Le Mans/Targa Florio)
    so generally yes.
     
  25. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    John!
    #25 Ferraripilot, Dec 31, 2012
    jim, do you have a shot of one of the synchros?
     
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